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4184
United States District Court
21 Two Uniondale Avenue
Uniondale, New York 11553
22 (516) 485-6558

23
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4186

1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2

3 (The following takes place in the absence of the

4 jury.)

5 THE COURT: I see that Mr. Nelson and

6 Mr. Trabulus got here all right?

7 You were taken care of promptly?

8 MR. NELSON: Yes.

9 THE COURT: There has been a waiver by

10 Mr. Reffsin and Mr. Wallenstein; is that correct?

11 MR. GEDULDIG: Yes.

12 THE COURT: And you are representing Mr. Reffsin
13 today; is that correct, Mr. Geduldig?

14 MR. GEDULDIG: That's correct.

15 MR. NEVILLE: There are some people back there

16 who are having too much fun.

17 THE COURT: Since they are my people I better get

18 back there.

19 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

20 courtroom.)

21 THE COURT: Good afternoon, members of the jury.

22 Please be seated.

23 Again my compliments. I timed it, 1:27, you were
24 all here, not 1:30, 1:27.
25 You may proceed.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4187

1

2 D E B R A B E N J A M I N,

3 called as a witness, having been previously

4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

5 follows:

6

7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)

8 BY MR. WHITE:

9 Q Now, Ms. Benjamin, do you recall yesterday you were

10 asked questions by Mr. Nelson about the four levels of

11 review of customer's qualifications?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Now, I want to go over with you those levels of

14 review.

15 The first one that Mr. Nelson talked about was

16 the selection of the mailing lists themselves; do you

17 remember that?

18 A That's right.

19 Q And you were deeply involved in that; is that

20 correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Now, you also said yesterday in response to a

23 question from Mr. Trabulus, that except for unusual -- let
24 me rephrase the question.
25 Except in certain infrequent occasions, the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4188
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 actual tapes that had the names on the mailing list were

2 not usually at the Who's Who offices; is that right?

3 A That's rig ht.

4 Q And they would go from the mailing list broker to the

5 mailing house; is that correct?

6 A That is correct.

7 Q Now, at the time that you were selecting the lists,

8 did you know even a single name on that list?

9 A Do you mean have knowledge of it? No.

10 Q So, if you bought a list of 50,000 names, how many of

11 those individual person's names would you know?

12 A None in advance.

13 Q And when you selected a list, would you know whether

14 any person whose name was on that list had any career

15 achievements?

16 A In some cases yes, and in some cases no.

17 Q Okay.

18 Tell us the cases where you would know the career

19 achievements?

20 A Well, when you segmented a list -- by segment, it is

21 broken down into different portions -- there were lists

22 selectable by title.

23 Q Now, aside from the title, just the person's title,
24 would you know any other career achievements that they
25 had?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4189
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A No.

2 Q Now, do you recall yesterday we looked at a list that

3 was purchased or rented of American Bar Association

4 members; do you remember that?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q Using that as an example, when you rented the ABA

7 list, would you know how long a member on that -- a person

8 on that list had been an attorney?

9 A No.

10 Q Would you know if they had just passed the bar?

11 A No.

12 Q Would you know if they were new in practice or were a

13 federal judge?

14 A No.

15 Q Would you know if they were respected by their peers?

16 A No.

17 Q Would you know if they ever won any case?

18 A No.

19 Q Would you know if they ever che ated their clients?

20 A No.

21 Q Is that correct, the one fact you would know, and the

22 one fact only, is that they belong to the ABA?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q Now, you recall we also looked at mailing list rental
25 invoices that related to magazines; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4190
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And in that case would you know anything about the

3 job of the person other than perhaps the title?

4 A No.

5 Q Do you know their age?

6 A No.

7 Q Would you know their education?

8 A No.

9 Q Again, you would know one fact and only one fact

10 only, the fact that they subscribed to that magazine; is

11 that right?

12 A That's right.

13 Q Now, let's talk about the second level of screening

14 that Mr. Nelson asked you about. What he identified as

15 the second level of screening is when the cards were

16 returned and they were sorted by members of the

17 administrative department; is that right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Now, who did this in administration?

20 A Well, people that worked under Liz Sautter.

21 Q And are those the people you referred to earlier as

22 the data entry girls?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And where did they do this?
25 A In the conference room.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4191
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Q You said in response to Mr. Schoer's questions, that

2 they did this behind closed doors, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And after they finished sorting it, what did they do

5 with it?

6 A From my recollection they were put into decks of

7 cards and then were turned over to Liz. They were counted

8 and sorted.

9 Q And Liz put them in the administrative office under

10 lock and key, right?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And you weren't in the conference room when they were

13 sorting them regularly, were you?

14 A No.

15 Q And in fact, you weren't usually there, were you?

16 A No, not usually.

17 Q Do you recall several days ago Judge Spatt asked you

18 how long you were there, how often you were there and you

19 said once every couple of weeks you would maybe stick your

20 head in; is that right?

21 A That's right.

22 Q Mr. Schoer asked you, that insofar as you knew those

23 girls simply perused them; is that right?
24 A That's right.
25 Q And you said in response to Mr. Schoer's questions

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4192
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 you don't know if they pulled out unqualified peopl e, do

2 you?

3 A No, I don't know for a fact.

4 Q So that is the second level of review. Let's talk

5 about the third level of review that Mr. Nelson

6 mentioned. That's the salesperson and what they did with

7 the card in the sales departments.

8 Now, were you involved in the telemarketing and

9 sales end of the business?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you ever walk up and down the aisles where the

12 salespeople were, listening to them on a regular basis?

13 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form.

14 THE COURT: Leading?

15 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, and the term is

16 contradictory, did you ever, and then on a regular basis.

17 MR. WHITE: I will take out the "ever".

18 THE COURT: That's good, Mr. Trabulus. I didn't

19 pick that up. Sustained.

20 Q Ms. Benjamin, did you on a regular basis walk up and

21 down the aisles listening to what the salespeople did?

22 A Not on a regular basis, no.

23 Q Now, do you know of personal knowledge as to whether
24 a salesperson ever disqualified someone -- let me not fall
25 into the same trap I fell into before.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4193
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Do you know if on a regular basis salespeople

2 disqualified members because of their qualifications, of

3 your own personal knowledge?

4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Overruled.

6 Q You can answer?

7 A I would like to just understand what you mean by

8 regular. I mean, there were sales people who went through

9 their decks and would eliminate cards.

10 Q Do you know of your own knowledge if they did that of

11 your own personal knowledge?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Now, did the sales people have a quota that they had

14 to meet?

15 A That I wasn't a hundred percent sure of.

16 Q Well, did the salespeople work on commission?

17 A Yes.

18 Q So, the more salespeople made, the more money they

19 made, correct?

20 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 MR. GEDULDIG: I have an objection.

23 THE COURT: Since two have an objection, I will
24 listen now. Not that I didn't listen to you, Mr. Jenks,
25 of course.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4194
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 MR. GEDULDIG: Mr. White is asking a whole series

2 of questions regarding salespeople's job responsibilities,

3 and he is asking if she has knowledge of them having a

4 quota. That is precisely something she cannot answer.

5 MR. WHITE: Precisely my point, your Honor, they

6 went into this yesterday and she has no knowledge of

7 this.

8 MR. GEDULDIG: I didn't open any doors on behalf

9 of Ms. Haley. And I am objecting about Mr. White asking

10 Ms. Benjamin about job responsibilities of my client. I

11 didn't open any doors.

12 THE COURT: I don't know if you opened any doors

13 or not. I will let her answer the questions. If she

14 doesn't know, she will testify she doesn't know. She is

15 third in command of the operation, and I think she can

16 answer some of these questions. If she doesn't know, she

17 will say so.

18 MR. TRABULUS: I will object that it is beyond

19 the scope of the cross.

20 THE COURT: Not in my view. I think it is

21 precisely within the exact scope of the cross. Because I

22 recalled her being asked all these questions about certain

23 screening apparatus in place.
24 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. But not quotas and
25 commissions.

HARRY RAPAPOR T, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4195
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: Well, that's part of the screening

2 apparatus.

3 MR. JENKS: I will ask you to instruct Mr. White

4 not to lead the witness. The last couple of questions

5 were leading in nature and they call for a one word

6 answer.

7 THE COURT: You are right. I have been letting

8 it go because I wanted to move it along. But you are

9 quite right.

10 MR. WHITE: I will try not to lead, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: And I also believed that those

12 leading questions were harmless.

13 Go ahead, but don't lead the question.

14 Q The last question was: If the salespeople were

15 working on commission, if they made more sales, they made

16 more money, correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Now, the fourth level of review that Mr. Nelson

19 talked about is after the sal e was made, there were the

20 same data entry girls who were supposed to put them, input

21 them into the computer; is that right?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Were you in charge of those data entry girls?
24 A No, I was not.
25 Q Were they in a different department than you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4196
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A Yes.

2 Q Who at the company had primary responsibility for

3 reviewing the order forms after the sale was made?

4 A Primarily responsibility? Well, I believe it was the

5 group leaders and then it would go into administration.

6 Q Do you know who in administration?

7 A Well, Liz and Wendi Springer.

8 Q Now were you in the administration department?

9 A No, I was not.

10 Q Was Wendi in the administration department?

11 A Yes, she was.

12 Q Between you and Wendi Springer, who would be in a

13 better position to know what screening was done at this

14 point?

15 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 A Could you repeat the question? I am sorry.

18 Q As between you in your position and Wendi Springer in

19 her position, who would be in a better position to know

20 just what screening went on after the sale was made?

21 A Wendi Springer, I presume.

22 Q I will ask you now about some of the benefits you

23 raised with respect to the members.
24 When was the first issue of Tribute Magazine?
25 A The end of 1993, the beginning of 1994.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4197
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Q So, in 1990, 1991, 1992, and most of 1993, there was

2 no such thing, correct?

3 A I wasn't there in '90 and '91. I came at the very

4 end, the latter porti on of '92.

5 Q While you were there, it wasn't there before the end

6 of '93, the beginning of '94; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q If you can look at the book in front of you at

9 Exhibit 288 in evidence.

10 Now, you identified that the other day as the

11 contract with Transnational related to the Airborne

12 Express; is that right?

13 A That's right.

14 Q Tell us, looking at the last page, what the date of

15 that contract is?

16 A January 31st, 1994.

17 Q Was that the inauguration of the Airborne Express

18 benefit program?

19 A I would presume it was.

20 Q So, that benefit was not available in 1993, correct?

21 A No.

22 Q It wasn't available in 1992, correct?

23 A No.
24 Q And before that you weren't at the company; is that
25 right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4198
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A All right.

2 Q Look at 289.

3 What benefit does that relate to?

4 A The auto insurance.

5 Q And looking at the front page of that document, when

6 was that contract signed?

7 A April 27th, 1994.

8 Q And the Airborne Express program wasn't available

9 prior to that date, was it?

10 A No. Excuse me, you mean --

11 Q The date on the contract?

12 A The auto insurance?

13 Q I am sorry, the auto insurance.

14 A No.

15 Q Do you remember when the postal inspectors executed

16 the search warrant at Who's Who's offices?

17 A It was March of 1995.

18 Q So, the Tribute, the Airborne Express, and the auto

19 insurance, were operative for about a year, maybe a little

20 more, a little less -- let me back up. They were in place

21 in the last year, approximately, of the company's

22 operation; is that right?

23 A That is correct.
24 Q Do you know how long the company had been in
25 operation prior to 1994?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4199
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A No, I don't.

2 Q If you can look in that book on page 324.

3 Now, that is a purchase order, correct?

4 A That is correct.

5 Q And that the one we reviewed two days ago when you

6 were ordering a series of lists and there was a letter

7 attached; is that right?

8 A That's right.

9 Q How much on that one occasion was Who's Who paying

10 for their mailing list?

11 MR. SCHOER: Objection. This was asked on direct

12 examination.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I am getting to a point.

15 Q Can you give us an idea, even in approximation, of

16 how much money was spent by Who's Who Worldwide and

17 Sterling on mailings per year?

18 A I would be afraid to make an approximation.

19 Q Well, that one order is over $100,000; is that right?

20 A That's right.

21 Q Do you recall testifying yesterday about what the

22 company's refund policy was?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Tell us your understanding of the company's refund
25 policy?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4200
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A My understanding is if a member is displeased with

2 everything, then a refund is supposed to have been issued

3 very expediently.

4 Q Take a look at Government's Exhibit 54-G, like in

5 George, for Identification, and read it to yourself.

6 (Handed to the witness.)

7 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection that the

8 company did not always give refunds when a customer was

9 dissatisfied?

10 MR. T RABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Does that refresh your recollection with regard

13 to the refund policy of the company?

14 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think there is enough

15 information in this letter. I mean this person may have

16 been a member for two years. Based on this letter, I

17 don't know.

18 THE COURT: In addition, I didn't think that your

19 memory needed to be refreshed, did it?

20 Are you familiar with the refund policy without

21 looking at any document?

22 THE WITNESS: My only understanding of it is that

23 it was handled through administration or sales, that's
24 it. My information is when people were displeased they
25 were issued a refund.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4201
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: All right.

2 MR. WHITE: That's my point, y our Honor.

3 Q Were you in the department that handled a refund?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you ever handle one single refund yourself to a

6 customer?

7 A No.

8 Q Do you know if there were any restrictions as to when

9 a customer can get a refund or not?

10 A No.

11 Q So, you don't know that of your personal knowledge?

12 A No. If there was a time restraint, no.

13 Q Now, Mr. Trabulus asked you questions about the

14 conversation you had with Mr. Gordon where you told him

15 you thought the word nominee was misleading; do you recall

16 that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And do you recall Mr. Gordon trying to convince you

19 that it was an accurate term?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And was he trying to do that at the meeting?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And did he make reference to a dictionary definition
24 of the word?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4202
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Q And Mr. Trabulus showed you a letter that he made

2 reference to?

3 A Yes.

4 Q After showing him those things and having the

5 conversation with him, were you convinced that it was an

6 accurate term?

7 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

9 Q After that meeting, and after you were shown those

10 things by Mr. Gordon, did you have another meeting where

11 you expressed a similar concern after that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And were you convinced by what he told you?

14 A No, not 100 percent.

15 Q Now, in March of 1995, you had a meeting with

16 Inspector Biegelman, Mr. Gordon and Inspector Pagano; is

17 that right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And Mr. Schoer asked you if Inspector Biegelman told

20 you that you weren't doing anything -- I am sorry.

21 Mr. Schoer asked you, indicated to you if you

22 were -- that Inspector Biegelman indicated to you if you

23 were doing anything wrong; do you recall that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did Inspector Biegelman indicate to you that Who's

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4203
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Who Worldwide was doing anything wrong?

2 A No.

3 Q And at that meeting you were present; is that right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And at that meeting did you tell Inspector Biegelman

6 that you thought that the company used mailing lists, but

7 told people they were nominated?

8 THE COURT: Overruled.

9 A I don't recall.

10 Q At that meeting did you tell Inspector Biegelman that

11 you personally thought the use of the word "nomination"

12 was misleading?

13 A I don't recall.

14 MR. TRABUL US: Objection. There was no testimony

15 that that was subject to discussion.

16 MR. WHITE: That's my point.

17 THE COURT: Excuse me. From now on just the word

18 "objection". Overruled.

19 Q Let me ask Mr. Trabulus' question.

20 Was there any discussion whatsoever of the fact

21 that the company told people that they were nominated, but

22 they really used mailing lists?

23 A Off the top of my head, I don't recall. But to me,
24 what I am remembering is for me telling them what had
25 happened with Mr. Parks.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4204
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Q You were asked by my count almost 20 times yesterday

2 whether you had any intent to deceive the members of Who's

3 Who. Do you recall those kind of questions?

4 A Yes.

5 Q The letters you sent out had a term in it that you

6 consi dered misleading; is that right?

7 MR. JENKS: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

9 Q Did the letters you sent out have a term in it that

10 you considered misleading?

11 A That's a difficult thing to answer. Yes and no.

12 Q Explain what you mean.

13 A You asked me before if I was convinced or not

14 convinced by the word "nominated" and I said to you not

15 100 percent either way. It was shown to me it means

16 chosen or selected in the dictionary. If Mr. Gordon was

17 comfortable with that, so be it. That's how it was done.

18 Q Even if you were uncomfortable with it?

19 MR. DUNN: Objection.

20 MR. JENKS: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 Q And after that meeting -- what was your answer?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And after that meeting you were sufficiently
25 uncomfortable that you had another meeting with it; is

H ARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4205
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 that right?

2 A At a later date, yes.

3 Q What sort of concerns did you express at that

4 meeting?

5 A I just felt it caused confusions at some times.

6 Q And then even after -- let me back up.

7 So, what did Mr. Gordon say to you in that

8 meeting?

9 A If my memory serves me correctly, I believe we did

10 try letters with other forms in it.

11 Q Then did you have a conversation with Mr. Gordon

12 about the response rate to those letters?

13 A They didn't pull as well as the letters that had the

14 word "nominate" in it.

15 Q When you say it didn't pull, did someone say that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Who?

18 A Mr. Gordon.

19 Q Were the words "nominated" subsequently reinserted

20 into letters at some point after that?

21 A Yes.

22 Q At some subsequent time did you send a letter to the

23 company's attorney?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I just have one

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4206
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 moment?

2 THE COURT: Surely.

3 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

4 proceedings.)

5 Q Now, Mr. Schoer asked you yesterday, if you believe

6 you deceived any members into joining Who's Who; do you

7 remember that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do you believe that you deceived members into

10 joining?

11 A I don't believe that I did.

12 Q Now, do you recall meeting with the government in

13 approximately the fall of 1997, at the postal inspector's

14 office in Hicksville with your attorney?

15 A Yes.

16 Q At that time did you tell the government that you

17 thought that c ustomers would never buy memberships, if

18 they were told they came from mailing lists?

19 MR. NELSON: Objection.

20 MR. JENKS: Objection.

21 A Yes.

22 THE COURT: What grounds?

23 MR. NELSON: One, she indicated she hadn't
24 recalled making such a statement. Two, he is impeaching
25 his own witness here.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4207
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: Overruled on both grounds.

2 Mr. Jenks, you have an objection?

3 MR. JENKS: I will adopt Mr. Nelson's

4 objections.

5 THE COURT: All right.

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further

7 questions.

8

9 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. TRABULUS:

11 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Benjamin.

12 A Good afternoon.

13 Q I think you indicated in response to a question by

14 Mr. White just now that with re gard to the use of the word

15 nominate, it was Mr. Gordon -- Mr. Gordon said it was

16 correct by him, and, therefore, you regarded it as

17 correct, something to that effect?

18 A More or less.

19 Q Now, Mr. Gordon doesn't say, didn't say it was only

20 okay with him, but it was being utilized by Marquis Who's

21 Who, when he showed you that letter.

22 A Yes.

23 Q And he explained it wasn't just his letter, but that
24 reflected by Marquis Who's Who, using the word "nominate"
25 without at the same time mentioning the word "mailing

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4208
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 list"; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, you were asked by Mr. White -- withdrawn.

4 You indicated you were not 100 percent convinced

5 that the use of the word "nominate" was correct; is that

6 correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you also say you were not convinced 100 percent

9 convinced the other way; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And certainly Mr. Gordon seemed to have been

12 convinced 100 percent that it was okay; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And you weren't convinced 100 percent beyond a

15 reasonable doubt that it was not correct, were you?

16 MR. WHITE: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 Q Now, you testified that you couldn't recall whether

19 or not the subject matter came up in your that you

20 requested at Mr. Gordon's request with Inspector

21 Biegelman, you couldn't remember whether you had mentioned

22 that your company used mailing lists; is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you recall if any time during the conversation
25 with Inspector Biegelman you said anything false to him?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFI CIAL COURT REPORTER
4209
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 Did you say anything false to Inspector Biegelman?

2 A At that meeting?

3 Q That's correct.

4 A No.

5 Q Did you hear Mr. Gordon speak to Inspector Biegelman?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Did you hear Mr. Gordon say anything that was false?

8 A No.

9 Q Was there any question that Inspector Biegelman asked

10 that you refused to answer?

11 A No.

12 Q Was there --

13 THE COURT: You are picking up speed rapidly,

14 Mr. Trabulus. I am back about two questions.

15 MR. TRABULUS: I will repeat.

16 THE COURT: As I said, I am sure the jury kept up

17 with you. I am just the one having the trouble.

18 Q Ms. Benjamin, is it correct that you did not refuse

19 to answer any question that Inspector Biegelman asked?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Is it correct that you did not hear Mr. Go rdon refuse

22 to answer any question that Inspector Biegelman asked?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q You didn't hear Mr. Gordon evade any question, did
25 you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4210
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 A No.

2 Q You didn't evade any question, did you?

3 A No.

4 Q And you had invited them to come to the offices of

5 Who's Who Worldwide to discuss with them the operation of

6 a competitor or another company, or also to discuss Who's

7 Who Worldwide's operation; is that correct?

8 A Correct, but except the meeting took place at

9 Sterling Who's Who.

10 Q I meant to say Sterling. I am sorry.

11 You were asked some questions concerning benefits

12 and when they first came into existence.

13 Is it correct that the Master Card benefit first

14 came into existence in 1993 at some po int?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And arranging for these benefits was not simply like

17 going to the Airborne Freight office and dropping an

18 Airborne Freight envelope, was it?

19 A No, not at all.

20 Q It was a complicated process that took a period of

21 time, did it not?

22 A Yes, it did.

23 Q It involved credit checks and things of that sort; is
24 that correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4211
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 Q And do you recall how long these things were in the

2 works before each one actually materialized?

3 A Not off the top of my head, but it was quite a few

4 months.

5 Q To clarify one point, with respect to the

6 administration, besides Liz Sautter and Wendi Springer,

7 were there others who reviewed the group cards -- the

8 cards after the group leaders re viewed them?

9 A I imagine it would be anybody in that department.

10 Q Was that your understanding?

11 A Yes.

12 Q You were asked as to whether you personally knew

13 whether or not the data entry people pulled inappropriate

14 cards before they were distributed to the salespeople, and

15 I think you said you of your own personal knowledge did

16 not see that; is that correct?

17 A Yes, that's correct.

18 Q But was it your understanding that they were supposed

19 to?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did Mr. Gordon ever complain to you that they weren't

22 doing that?

23 A Not that I recall.
24 Q Did Mr. Gordon ever complain to you -- did you hear
25 him complain that other people weren't doing their job

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4212
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 appropriately?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You have been asked by quite a few people about the

4 fact that the cards and related materials were kept behind

5 the door, and sometimes were kept locked; do you recall

6 that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And the cards were considered to be a valuable asset

9 of the company, were they not?

10 A Yes, they were.

11 Q Indeed, Mr. Gordon would sometimes talk about how

12 much it would cost him for each card on a per card basis;

13 is that correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q When Joe Parks left and started a competing business,

16 did he take information with him?

17 A Yes. I believe he did.

18 Q And he took valuable information and contacted

19 customers himself and basically stole that business?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Is that a major reason why things in administration

22 were kept separate from salespeople, so if someone wanted

23 to do something like what Joe Parks did, they couldn't do
24 it?
25 A That would make sense.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4213
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 Q There was some conversation concerning nomination

2 ballots, and I wanted to qualify something. There was

3 actually places on the nomination ballots where the member

4 making the nomination could check off that they wanted to

5 remain anonymous; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And so, if a salesperson were to tell somebody that

8 somebody had nominated them, but they wished to be

9 anonymous, that could well be true?

10 A Yes, it could be.

11 Q Now, you were asked whether or not a salesperson

12 would make more money through his or her commission by

13 making additional sales; is that correct?

14 A That is correct.

15 Q Now, if a salesperson made a sale - - I am putting the

16 word "sale" in quotes, to somebody's card who would later

17 be pulled by the group leaders or Wendi Springer or

18 someone working in administration because they weren't

19 appropriate, that salesperson wouldn't make money on that

20 sale; is that correct?

21 A I would presume that would be the way it would be

22 handled.

23 Q In fact, that salesperson would have wasted his or
24 her time in making the sale to the person, when they could
25 have appropriately put the card back and making the sale

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4214
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 from an appropriate person; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.

4

5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. SCHOER:

7 Q Ms. Benjamin, I think Mr. White asked you -- good

8 afternoon, I'm sorry.

9 A Good afternoon.

10 Q I think Mr. White asked you about a meeting you had

11 with the government in the fall of 1997?

12 A In '97, yes.

13 Q And do you remember when that was in '97?

14 A It was -- I am not sure if it was in '97. I don't

15 think it was in '97. I am sorry.

16 Q You remember the conversation?

17 A Yes.

18 Q You remember the question that Mr. White asked you

19 concerning -- the very last question he asked you?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And he talked about a conversation you had with the

22 government?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you remember when that was?
25 A I believe he was referring to the meeting that we had

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4215
Benjamin-recross/Schoer


1 in the post office in Manhattan, if I am correct.

2 Q The post office in Manhattan?

3 A Uh-huh.

4 Q Was your attorney present at that meeting?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And which attorney was that?

7 A Frank Agostino.

8 Q And that's the first meeting that you had in January

9 of 1996?

10 MR. JENKS: 11th.

11 Q Yes?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And at that meeting Mr. White was present?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And Mr. Biegelman, Inspector Biegelman was present?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And your attorney, Mr. Agostino; is that right?

18 A That's correct.

19 MR. SCHOER: Judge, this is going to take some

20 time. I am going to ask Ms. Benjamin to look at the notes

21 of that meeting.

22 THE COURT: What is the question, Mr. Schoer?

23 MR. SCHOER: Eight pages.
24 THE COURT: What is the question?
25 MR. SCHOER: The question is, I am going to ask

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4216
Benjamin-recross/Schoer


1 her if there is anywhere in the notes of that meeting that

2 reflects that she made a statement concerning whether or

3 not members would have accepted membership if they knew

4 they were from mailing lists. The question that was asked

5 by Mr. White.

6 MR. WHITE: If I can speak to Mr. Schoer for a

7 moment, it may or may not have some bearing on this.

8 THE COURT: Go ahead.

9 (Mr. White confers with Mr. Schoer.)

10 Q Did you have a meeting with Mr. White in the fall of

11 1997 at the Hicksville post office?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And was your attorney present at that meeting?

14 A I believe he was, yes.

15 Q Do you remember what attorney that was?

16 A Peter Tommaso.

17 THE COURT: Peter who?

18 THE WITNESS: Tommaso.

19 MR. SCHOER: T O M M A S O.

20 Q And who else was present besides yourself and

21 Mr. Tommaso and Mr. White ?

22 A Inspector Pagano.

23 Q At that meeting did anyone take any notes?
24 A I don't recall.
25 Q Do you recall Mr. White or Mr. Pagano taking notes of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4217
Benjamin-recross/Schoer


1 anything you said?

2 A I really don't recall if they did or not.

3 MR. SCHOER: Can I have a stipulation from

4 Mr. White that there are no notes of that meeting at all?

5 MR. WHITE: There are no notes.

6 Q At the other meetings that you had there were notes

7 that were being taken by Mr. Biegelman, or Mr. White, or

8 Mr. Pagano, someone from the government; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q So that one meeting, no notes, as far as you

11 remember?

12 A As far as I remember, no.

13 Q Okay.

14 You indicated concerning the refund policy, you

15 were under the impression that th at was the policy as you

16 stated it; is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And it was your impression based upon everything you

19 observed at the company, and what you were being told by

20 Mr. Gordon; isn't that so?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Is that similar, that it was your impression that as

23 the girls in administration were sorting through the cards
24 in that initial selection level, that they were in fact
25 perusing the cards as you said, and pulling cards of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4218
Benjamin-recross/Schoer


1 people who were unqualified?

2 A That was my impression.

3 Q That was your impression, based on everything you saw

4 and everything you were told while you were at the

5 company; is that right?

6 A That is correct.

7 Q And you had no reason based on what you saw and what

8 you heard to doubt that impression, to question that

9 impression, right?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Do you think based on what you observed concerning

12 those cards, if a card came in in crayon, that that card

13 would have been pulled?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And obviously if it was a card of a young child, it

16 would have been pulled?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And so, when you say they perused the cards, they at

19 least looked through the cards to that extent so they

20 would know if the cards were answered -- well, withdrawn.

21 They would know if a card was in crayon or not,

22 right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And the last level of selection, the one that related
25 to administration and Wendi Springer and the data entry,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4219
Benjamin-recross/Schoer


1 by the girls, and I will say lady, you were involved

2 because Wendi Springer came to ask you questions; is that

3 correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And when she came to ask you questions, she would ask

6 a question as to whether a particular person was qualified

7 to be a member; is that right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And those are the questions she was asking, and she

10 was asking your opinion, based on this information, do you

11 think this person fits into our criteria to become a

12 member; is that right?

13 A Yes, that's right.

14 Q And you would tell her, no, right, if you felt that

15 the person didn't fit into the criteria?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And you did that on many occasions; is that right?

18 A On the occasions where it was appropriate, yes.

19 Q Well, there were occasions where it was appropriate

20 that people were unqualified?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You said you did not have t he intent to deceive; is

23 that right?
24 A That's right.
25 Q Was it your belief after working there, based on your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4220
Benjamin-recross/Schoer


1 experience, based on what you heard and what you saw, that

2 the business of Who's Who Worldwide was a scheme to

3 defraud someone --

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 Q Anyone?

6 THE COURT: Overruled.

7 Q You can answer.

8 A No.

9 Q You didn't think it was a scheme to defraud, right?

10 A No.

11 Q You didn't feel it was a scheme to take away people's

12 money by trick or deception?

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Overruled.

15 Q Right?

16 A Right.

17 Q You didn't think that you or the other people there

18 were making false representations to people with intent to

19 deceive them , did you?

20 A No.

21 Q Thank you.

22 Have a nice wedding.

23 A Thank you.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4221
Benjamin-recross/Lee


1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. LEE:

3 Q Hi, Ms. Benjamin.

4 Now, you recall that Mr. White went over with you

5 these levels of screening, do you recall that?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Mr. White just asked you that.

8 Now, it would be a fair statement by me that the

9 more screening policies that Who's Who Worldwide put into

10 place, that actually reduced the pool of people that might

11 eventually purchase a membership from Who's Who Worldwide;

12 is that correct?

13 A That would make logical sense.

14 Q So, in fact, the placement of these four levels of

15 screening would at least in one respect work against the

16 interest of Wo rldwide; is that correct? As I said, it

17 would reduce the pool of people who would purchase a

18 membership; is that right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q For example, Mr. White, he asked you about the ABA

21 list. Do you recall that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Now, he didn't ask you, did he -- now, you were part
24 of -- you were the director of marketing?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4222
Benjamin-recross/Lee


1 Q And based on your training, you had to make sure that

2 your product fit the market that you were targeting; is

3 that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And when you decide on the person you are going to

6 target, you want to target a person who would have some

7 use for your product, and the things that it would offer

8 to that person who would purchase it, is that correct?

9 A Corre ct.

10 Q And in deciding when you segmented listed, and

11 decided who to target, you looked for people who could

12 benefit from networking, correct? That was one of the

13 rationales?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And an attorney, whether it is someone who just

16 passed the bar, who may need the networking more than an

17 experienced attorney, in your opinion an attorney is

18 someone who would benefit from networking?

19 A Yes.

20 Q That's the type of person you would look for; is that

21 correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And when making your demands of a mailing list
24 company, you would have that in mind, you would try to
25 segment, focus on those people who would have a need for

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4223
Benjamin-recross/Lee


1 your product, right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q But, also, as far as salespe ople screening people

4 they were talking to on the phone, you were aware that

5 that was occurring, of course, that salespeople after

6 repeating their interview, they would actually reject

7 people; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you recall, do you not, on a regular basis that

10 Laura Weitz would reject people after conducting an

11 interview of them on the phone?

12 A Laura in particular, yes.

13 Q Particularly?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And would I be fair to say that on the one hand, it

16 would work against the Who's Who Worldwide's interest to

17 be so selective, and on the other hand, it would be in

18 line of the Who's Who policy of trying to maintain a high

19 standard to have all these screening processes in place;

20 is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And that's one where you as the director of marketing

23 and administration, one of the overriding rationales in
24 everything that Who's Who did was to try to maintain a
25 high standard; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4224
Benjamin-recross/Lee


1 A Can I correct you on one thing. I was director of

2 marketing and not administration.

3 Q I apologize. But as director of marketing, you were,

4 of course in agreement with Who's Who's policy in trying

5 to maintain a high standard as far as the membership is

6 concerned?

7 A Yes.

8 Q To be selective, yes?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Now, if Who's Who then provided a script to the

11 salespeople, if the statement in the script was, and if

12 the salesperson reading the script, stated to the member

13 they are interview, we try to maintain a high standard,

14 that's a statement that would be accurate; is that

15 correct?

1 6 A I would have no knowledge of what would be in the

17 scripts.

18 Q The question was: If a salesperson made a

19 statement -- you knew that salespeople were provided with

20 some sort of a pitch sheet or a script; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q I am saying if that salesperson read a script that we

23 are trying to be selective, and if that salesperson made
24 the pitch, made the statement to the prospective member,
25 that statement would be accurate; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4225
Benjamin-recross/Lee


1 A Yes.

2 Q And it would be a basis in fact, if that salesperson

3 were to state to people, we try to maintain a high

4 standard, that would have a basis in fact?

5 A Yes.

6 Q It is not something fabricated out of thin air, is

7 it?

8 A No.

9 MR. LEE: I have no furth er questions.

10

11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. GEDULDIG:

13 Q Ms. Benjamin, when Mr. White was asking you some

14 questions, he was asking you a series of questions

15 regarding the operations of the administrative office at

16 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q It is fair to say that the various office at Who's

19 Who Worldwide were kept separate and apart, and one office

20 was not permitted to function with regard to another

21 office?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q In fact, the offices were told by Mr. Gordon not to
24 inquire as to what the other offices did and how they did
25 it; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4226
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 A That is correct.

2 Q Is it correct to say that when asked questions about

3 the operation of the adm inistration office, Ms. Sautter

4 would be able to testify knowledgeably and intelligibly?

5 A Absolutely.

6 Q She was in charge of that office?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q Did you have anything to do with the operation of the

9 administrative office?

10 A In reality, no.

11 Q And when asked questions by Mr. White, would it be

12 correct that Ms. Sautter might give answers that are

13 somewhat different than what you have given here today?

14 A It's possible.

15 Q Now, you said the various offices were kept separate

16 and apart, and that there was a rule with the company for

17 people in one office not to be too inquisitive as to what

18 is going on in the other office; is that right?

19 A That is correct.

20 Q You testified about an operation of the

21 administration office by Mr. White, on the cross, with

22 regard to the selection process th at the data entry girls

23 were in a room doing some selection of cards; do you
24 recall that?
25 A The sorting of cards, yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4227
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 Q And that was an operation that was overseen by Liz

2 Sautter; is that right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And there were times you would go into that room and

5 see the process as it was going on; is that right?

6 A That's right.

7 Q Was there ever a time that you were in Who's Who

8 Worldwide that you ever saw a salesperson -- I am talking

9 now about salespeople like Annette Haley, Scott

10 Michaelson, Mr. Rubin, Ms. Weitz, did you ever see anyone

11 like that, a salesperson who is on the phone, go into the

12 administration office and take part with the data entry

13 girls in the selection process?

14 A Absolutely not.

15 Q They wouldn't be permitted to do that?

16 A Absolutely not.

17 Q They wouldn't know about the selection process being

18 done in the administrative office; is that right?

19 A Absolutely not.

20 Q They were kept ignorant of the selection process as

21 it was being performed?

22 A Yes.

23 Q In the selection office?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Now, you were asked some questions on redirect by

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4228
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 Mr. White regarding this conversation you had with

2 Mr. Gordon regarding the uses of the term "nomination".

3 Do you recall that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you were -- I think you characterized yourself as

6 being possibly the number two person at the company, after

7 you had been there a short period of time; is that right?

8 A I didn't get into the pecking order.

9 Q If there were a pecking order you would certainly be

10 at the top; is that right?

11 A I would presume so.

12 Q You were a corporate officer?

13 A No, I was not.

14 Q You became vice president, I thought?

15 A That was a title.

16 Q How many other people were called vice president at

17 the company?

18 A I was the only one.

19 Q Okay.

20 Would it be fair to say that there were very few

21 people -- withdrawn.

22 During your stay at Who's Who Worldwide, there

23 were a hundred or more employees working there at
24 different times; is that right?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4229
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 Q It could be as many on one occasion when business was

2 really good, there could have been as many as 140

3 employees at Who's Who Worldwide?

4 A I don't know the exact count.

5 Q Would it be safe to say that it was -- there were in

6 excess of 100 people employed at Who's Who Worldwide on

7 occasion?

8 A The Lake Success office or the combination?

9 Q Well, let's do the combination?

10 A Possibly, yes.

11 Q Now, there would be times when the company would

12 adopt a policy to be used by the entire company, Who's Who

13 Worldwide; is that right?

14 A By the entire company --

15 Q For instance, there was a policy decision that people

16 from the sales office could not go over to the

17 administration office. That was a policy decision, right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And would it be fair to say that if those decisions

20 were made, sometimes Mr. Gordon might do it all by

21 himself, saying this is the policy for this company from

22 this day on; is that right?

23 A Ye s.
24 Q And would there be times when Mr. Gordon might sit
25 down and discuss a policy decision?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4230
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 A With whom?

2 Q Say, with you, or with Liz Sautter.

3 Let me give you an example. You had a discussion

4 with Mr. Gordon about the use of the term "nomination" in

5 those letters; is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you were able to have that discussion with him

8 partly because of the position you had at the company; is

9 that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And Liz Sautter, if she wanted to discuss the use of

12 the term nomination in the letters, she possibly could

13 have sat down at some point with Mr. Gordon and had a

14 similar conversation; is that fair to say?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And is it fair to say that there were very few people

17 that could sit with Mr. Gordon and have a discussion on

18 the topics such as the use of the term nomination. For

19 instance, Annette Haley. Do you think Annette Haley could

20 have gone into Bruce Gordon's office and say, Bruce, I

21 would like to talk to you about the use of the term

22 "nomination" in the letters you are sending out?

23 A I don't know if she would have that privilege.
24 Q Do you think she would be allowed to do that?
25 A I don't know.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4231
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 Q Well, Mr. Gordon, isn't it fair to say, could be an

2 intimidating boss?

3 A Yes.

4 Q He sometimes got loud?

5 A Yes.

6 Q He would curse at people?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And he would insult people?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And do you think a person in the position occupied by

11 A nnette Haley, a salesperson talking on the phone, she may

12 have had the courage to do it, but do you think that a

13 person in that position had the ability to sit down and

14 have conversations with the president of the company about

15 the use of the term "nomination" in these letters?

16 A I don't know that it would be a particularly

17 comfortable position for them.

18 Q Mr. Gordon would make them uncomfortable?

19 A It would depend on the circumstances, yes.

20 Q Was this a company where there were meetings held by

21 Mr. Gordon with the various employees in these different

22 departments to discuss policies?

23 A I don't know the purpose of the meetings, but he did
24 have regular sales meetings.
25 Q At those meetings he would tell them to follow the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4232
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 pitch and things of that sort?

2 A The few that I were in -- I did not attend sales

3 meetings regularly.

4 Q Did you ever see Mr. Gordon show the letter to the

5 salespeople containing the term "nomination"?

6 A No.

7 Q Do you think he would have shown that letter?

8 A I doubt it.

9 Q It is not something Mr. Gordon would have viewed as

10 information the salespeople should have had?

11 A That's right.

12 Q He limited their knowledge, the salespeople's

13 knowledge as just a pitch, getting on the phone, staying

14 on the phone and making a sale; is that right?

15 A And being aware of the product.

16 Q All right, and being aware of the product.

17 And he was the one who defined what the product

18 was in a sense; is that right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Do you know when salespeople were hired, if they were

21 told what the nomination proce ss was all about?

22 A I have no knowledge of that.

23 Q Now, shortly after you came -- let me backtrack a
24 second.
25 Mr. White asked you some questions about these

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4233
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 lists and how they were broken down and how much they cost

2 and so forth. Do you recall those questions?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And I believe you became involved with obtaining

5 these various lists shortly after your arrival at Who's

6 Who; is that right?

7 A It was a few months later.

8 Q And after a time it was one of your primary functions

9 or jobs; is that right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q Was that a responsibility that you had to the

12 exclusion of other people?

13 Withdrawn.

14 When you first got there I believe you testified

15 that Liz Sautter was respon sible for obtaining these

16 lists; is that right?

17 A She and Mr. Gordon, yes.

18 Q And after a time it became a responsibility for you

19 and Mr. Gordon; is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And Liz Sautter might have been asked for some help,

22 but it was not a function she generally became involved in

23 any longer; is that right?
24 A Very rarely, yes.
25 Q Did there ever come a point in time you were working

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4234
Benjamin-recross/Geduldig


1 with these lists where you sat down with the salespeople

2 and explained the purpose or the function of these lists?

3 A No.

4 Q Did you ever have any conversations in a corporate

5 sense with any of the salespeople about the lists that you

6 were getting, the groups that they were focussed towards,

7 or anything of that sort?

8 A No.

9 MR. GEDULDIG: I don't think I have any other

10 questions, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Anything else?

12 MR. TRABULUS: If Mr. White doesn't have any more

13 questions, I have one or two suggestions by Mr. Geduldig.

14 MR. WHITE: He can go out of order.

15 THE COURT: You may proceed.

16

17 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. TRABULUS:

19 Q I want to clarify, Mr. Gordon can also be charming;

20 is that right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Good humored?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And have a sense of good humor?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4235
Benjamin-recross/Trabulus


1 Q And with the employees and yourself?

2 A Yes.

3 MR. TRABULUS: Nothing else.

4 MR. NELSON: I have some more questions, and

5 rather than do it from my seat, I am not sometimes seen

6 from there.

7

8 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. NELSON:

10 Q Apparently yesterday I coined the phrase of four

11 levels of scrutiny, sort of like the phrase "Who's Who."

12 Mr. Geduldig asked you a question concerning the

13 sales staff not going into the administrative offices when

14 the lead cards would come back and were sorted by people

15 from the administrative staff.

16 Would I be correct in stating that similar to the

17 sales personnel not being present, the group leaders did

18 not participate in the initial screening of the lead cards

19 when they came back?

20 A At the mail room portion?

21 Q That's correct.

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Okay.
24 And would I be correct in stating, however, that
25 the group leaders were aware of the fact that indeed a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

4236
Benjamin-recross/Nelson


1 sorting and screening was taking place behind those closed

2 doors before the lead cards were provided to them; is that

3 right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Similarly, am I correct that the group leaders did

6 not participate in the review and screening that was

7 conducted by Ms. Sautter and Wendi Springer after the

8 order forms were approved, when on occasion they came to

9 you; is that right?

10 A I wouldn't know.

11 Q And similarly -- would I be correct, however, in

12 stating, that the group leaders were indeed aware of the

13 fact that after the orders were completed and sent to

14 administration for processing, there indeed was this

15 fourth level of screening, if you will?

16 A Yes.

17 MR. NELSON: Thank you. No further questions.

18 Thank you.

19 THE COURT: Anything else?

20 MR. WHITE: I do.

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4237
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. WHITE:

3 Q Mr. Trabulus asked you about the lead cards, as to

4 whether or not they were a valuable asset; do you recall

5 that?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And he asked if Mr. Gordon would refer to them, like

8 I paid $20 for this card, something like that?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And did he do that?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Now, a nomination ballot, what was the cost to the

13 company of getting a nomination ballot?

14 MR. LEE: I think this is improper, Judge.

15 THE COURT: You are objecting?

16 MR. LEE: Yes.

17 THE COURT: Please don't make any statements.

18 MR. LEE: I apologize, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Q Was there any significant cost to the company to a

21 nomination ballot as opposed to a lead card?

22 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q The meeting at the Hicksville post office that
25 Mr. Schoer asked you about --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4238
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A Yes.

2 Q The one where we determined there are no notes.

3 The statement I asked you about before,

4 regardless of whether or not there were notes, do you

5 recall saying that at the meeting?

6 A I recall saying that I believed that there would be

7 less response if people knew their name came from a

8 mailing list.

9 Q And two of the four levels we talked about of the

10 screening of the cards, is done by what we have been

11 calling the data entry girls; is that right?

12 A For which I apologize for using that term.

13 Q No offense, but that is just what we have been using.

14 In the pecking order of the company, if there was

15 one, where did the data entry girls fit?

16 A I don't know. I perceived everyone as important to

17 the functioning of the company. So I don't know --

18 Q You said in response to Mr. Lee's questions that

19 maintaining a high standard was -- membership was

20 important to the company?

21 A I believed it was.

22 Q And it is your testimony that the screening was left

23 to data entry girls who made probably minimum wage at the
24 company; is that right?
25 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4239
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: On what ground?

2 MR. TRABULUS: Well, I think he inserted his own

3 comment.

4 THE COURT: Can I hear the question, please.

5 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

6 requested material.)

7 THE COURT: Sustained.

8 Q Leaving out the minimum -- well, do you know how much

9 they made?

10 A No.

11 Q Well, is it your testimony that screening was

12 performed at least in part by these data entry people?

13 A Yes.

14 MR. WHITE: No further questions.

15 MR. DUNN: Can I have a moment, your Honor?

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

18 proceedings.)

19 MR. DUNN: No further questions.

20 THE COURT: Anything else?

21 MR. SCHOER: No, your Honor.

22 THE COURT: You may step down, Ms. Benjamin.

23 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
24 witness stand.)
25 THE COURT: Please call your next witness.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4240

1 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Salvado r Ochoa.

2 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

3 proceedings.)

4 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, we are temporarily trying

5 to locate the witness.

6 THE COURT: Did you see him today?

7 MS. SCOTT: Yes.

8 THE COURT: Go ahead.

9 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.

10 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

11 proceedings.)

12 MS. SCOTT: He is on his way back, your Honor.

13 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

14 proceedings.)

15 MS. SCOTT: Might I suggest taking the ten-minute

16 break now?

17 THE COURT: All right, we will take a ten-minute

18 break now, and keep an open mind.

19

20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

21

22 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

23 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
24 courtroom.)
25 THE COURT: Have a seat, members of the jury.

HARRY RAPA PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4241

1 I apologize for keeping you waiting longer than

2 usual. But this was because we had three students from

3 Tuoro Law School. And one of the privileges of a judge is

4 able -- when I am able to explain the real facts of life

5 in a courtroom to the law students. And unlike my day

6 when we were restricted to a classroom, today they get out

7 into the field and learn what it is really like. And so I

8 had a very pleasurable 15 minutes speaking to them and

9 answering their questions. You will forgive me for

10 keeping you waiting.

11 You may proceed.

12 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Salvador Ochoa,

13 who needs to be sworn.

14

15 S A L V A D O R O C H O A,

16 called as a witness, having been first

17 duly sworn, was examined and testified

18 as follows:

19

20 THE COURT: Please be seated, and state your full

21 name and spell your name.

22 THE WITNESS: Salvador Ochoa, S A L V A D O R,

23 O C H O A.
24 THE COURT: You may proceed.
25 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4242
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1

2 DIRECT EXAMINATION

3 BY MS. SCOTT:

4 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Ochoa.

5 A Good afternoon.

6 Q Can you tell us where you live?

7 A I live in El Paso, Texas.

8 Q What do you do for a living?

9 A I currently work for the El Paso Police Department as

10 a civilian supervisor.

11 Q How long have you been doing that?

12 A I have been there for approximately a year now.

13 Q What are your responsibilities?

14 A My responsibilities are to oversee the performance of

15 three coordinators, one supervisor, and 13 rank and file

16 employees.

17 Q Now, what did you do before you took that job?

18 A Prior to that I was working for the El Paso building

19 department.

20 Q What was your title in that position?

21 A Several titles. I started out as a building

22 inspector. I then promoted to a plans examiner. Then I

23 promoted to the assistant director of the department.
24 Q How long were you the assistant director of the
25 department?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4243
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A I was assistant director for approximately six years.

2 Q What was your responsibilities in that position?

3 A My responsibilities were to oversee the field

4 inspectors and their supervisors and act as a department

5 head when the department head was out-of-pocket.

6 Q How many people were you supervising in that

7 department?

8 A All total, the department consisted of about 100

9 people. And that included inspectors, clerks, clerk

10 typists and everything else needed within the office

11 environment.

12 Q How long were you with the department overall?

13 A I was with that department for 22 years.

14 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Who's Who

15 Worldwide?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Did you eventually purchase a membership from that

18 company?

19 A Yes.

20 Q How did you first come into contact with Who's Who

21 Worldwide?

22 A The contact -- they contacted me by mail, sent me

23 some literature and an application.
24 Q When was that, approximately?
25 A That was about June of 1993, I believe.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4244
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q When they sent you this information, what did the

2 info rmation tell you?

3 A The organization's literature mentioned the fact that

4 I had become nominated to become a member into that

5 organization by another member.

6 Q You mentioned there was an application included with

7 the letter?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did you fill out the application?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Did you return it to the company?

12 A Yes.

13 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 63-D, as in

14 Daniel, for Identification.

15 (Handed to the witness.)

16 Can you tell us what that is?

17 A This is the application sent to me.

18 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 63-D.

19 THE COURT: Just one minute, please.

20 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

21 proceedings.)

22 THE COURT: Any objection?

23 MR. TRABULUS: No.
24 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 63-D, for Dog,
25 in evidence.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4245
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 (Government's Exhibit 63-D received in evidence.)

2 Q Mr. Ochoa, do you see your handwriting on that

3 application?

4 A Yes, I do.

5 Q And if you look at the lower right-hand corner, the

6 very bottom of the lower right-hand corner, the side that

7 has your handwriting on it, do you see a little printed

8 code on there?

9 A A printed code, global T P, G L O B A L, T P?

10 Q That's correct.

11 A Yes.

12 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish

13 Government's Exhibit 63-D?

14 THE COURT: Yes.

15 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

16 to the jury.)

17 MS. SCOTT: I am sorry, I need to ask Mr. Ochoa

18 to do one more thing with that.

19 Q Mr. Ochoa, can you read aloud the postmark appearing

20 on that.

21 A Who's Who Worldwide, office of public affairs, 1983

22 Marcus Avenue, suite 120C, Lake Success, New York

23 11042-1037.
24 Q That's the address, correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4246
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q And can you read us the postmark that appears before

2 that, the date on the postmark?

3 A The postmark is El Paso, Texas, 27 May, 1993.

4 Q Thank you, Mr. Ochoa.

5 MS. SCOTT: I will hand this now to the jury.

6 THE COURT: Very well.

7 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

8 to the jury.)

9 Q Now, what happened after you returned the postcard?

10 A I can't remember whether it was a month or weeks

11 later, but I received a telephone call from someone

12 representing themselves as being employed by Who's Who

13 Worldwide.

14 Q And did you have a conversation with that person?

15 A Yes, I did.

16 Q What were you told in that conversation?

17 A I was told that my application had been reviewed and

18 approved.

19 Then the individual went into all of the benefits

20 of Who's Who Worldwide.

21 We had a rather long conversation, and at one

22 point -- at several points during that conversation I

23 asked the caller who had nominated me for membership in
24 this organization. His response the first time is that he
25 couldn't divulge that information, but all members were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4247
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 listed in a registry that I would be receiving as part of

2 the benefit package for becoming a member of Who's Who

3 Worldwide.

4 During the conversation I remember pressing him

5 at least three times for the person who nominated me. I

6 felt it w as important for me now. But I never got a

7 response.

8 I then started getting a little bit doubtful, and

9 I then asked the caller literally, if this is a scam? My

10 exact words are: Are you running a scam?

11 At that point in time the individual got rather

12 indignant and proceeded to tell me that he represented a

13 worldwide organization, that the members were worldwide,

14 and then proceeded to reiterate the benefits of the

15 membership.

16 Q What else did this caller tell you about how people

17 were selected?

18 A The information was that all members of this

19 organization --

20 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

21 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

22 THE COURT: Yes.

23 When you say the inference was, Mr. Ochoa, you
24 will have to tell us what you remember was said, either
25 exact words or substantially. Not the inference, not your



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4248
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 inference at this point. Tell us what was said.

2 You may proceed.

3 A The caller said that all members were nominated by

4 members of the same organization that was a very

5 prestigious organization, that the registry contained all

6 types of business people, authors, attorneys, CEOs,

7 presidents of companies, etcetera, etcetera.

8 Q Now, what specifically were you told you would get

9 for your money, if you purchased a membership?

10 A I was told that I would be getting discounts to

11 conferences, business conferences, seminars, a book of all

12 the members, which was referred to as the registry, and

13 numerous other benefits that I can't remember right now.

14 Those were the only ones that I do remember.

15 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I have a moment?

16 THE COUR T: Yes.

17 (Ms. Scott confers with Mr. White.)

18 Q Now, Mr. Ochoa, can you tell us what the most

19 important thing was that caused you to buy a membership?

20 A The fact that I had been nominated by another member.

21 Q Why was that important to you?

22 A It was important to me because at that time I had

23 been drawing up plans to begin my own business within ten
24 years of that date, because at that time I would be
25 retired and I was planning on starting a small

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4249
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 construction company. And I felt that the person who

2 nominated me must have been in a similar background that I

3 was working in, which was construction, building codes,

4 architecture, engineering. And I felt it was good to join

5 an organization of that nature, because as the caller

6 mentione d in our conversation, it would give me an

7 opportunity to network with these types of individuals.

8 Q When you say join an organization of that nature,

9 what do you mean?

10 A It was to me an organization of individuals with

11 similar backgrounds. I don't believe that anybody who

12 didn't know me would take the time to nominate me. So it

13 occurred to me that to be nominated one would have to know

14 who you are and what you do, in which case, I had been in

15 the inspection department for 23 years, dealing with

16 hundreds of contractors, dozens of architects, engineers,

17 some attorneys. And it had to be, in my mind, somebody

18 from this field. And to me it would have been a good idea

19 to join an organization of this nature because of the

20 plans I had in the future.

21 Q Now, if in fact your name had been obtained not by

22 nomination from another membe r, but from a mailing list,

23 would that have affected your decision to purchase a
24 membership?
25 A Very much so.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4250
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q How would it have changed your decision?

2 A It would have been just another piece of junk mail.

3 I probably would have just thrown it away.

4 Q And why is that?

5 A Because I receive a lot of junk mail.

6 If you are on a list, a mailing list for example,

7 a telephone is a mailing list, the names in the roster of

8 a prison system is a mailing list, the names in a roster

9 of a military battalion is a mailing list, America On Line

10 is a mailing list. You have a lot of members, but the

11 important thing is you really can't network closely with

12 the members, because it would be just like looking in the

13 telephone book. If you ne ed an attorney, you can look up

14 under attorney. If you need a librarian, you look up

15 under librarian.

16 It wasn't worth it to me to become a member of an

17 organization that had bought my name from a mailing list.

18 Q How much did you pay for this membership?

19 A It was approximately a little over $200.

20 Q And how did you pay for it?

21 A I paid through my credit card for it.

22 Q How did you give your credit card to the company,

23 your credit card number?
24 A I think it was through the telephone or -- I don't
25 remember, to tell you the truth.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4251
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 63-B, as in

2 Boy.

3 (Handed to the witness.)

4 Q Do you recognize that document?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What is that?

7 A It is a copy of t he invoice that I received.

8 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 63-B.

9 THE COURT: Any objection?

10 MR. TRABULUS: No.

11 MR. JENKS: No objection.

12 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 63-B, for Baker,

13 in evidence.

14 (Government's Exhibit 63-B received in evidence.)

15 Q Is that the invoice that commemorates your purchase

16 for the invoice of Who's Who Worldwide?

17 A Yes, it is.

18 Q And can you tell us the date that appears on that

19 invoice?

20 A The invoice date is June 10th, 1993.

21 Q Can you tell us the price of your purchase as it

22 appears on the invoice?

23 A The price is $297.
24 Q I am going to read aloud -- withdrawn.
25 Did you receive a plaque?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4252
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A Yes, I received a plaque.

2 Q What happened whe n you received the plaque?

3 A I received the plaque that is stated, for outstanding

4 achievements for the year 1993 to '94, I believe.

5 I didn't take it too seriously. I figured the

6 plaque cost me $297 at the time.

7 I tried to put it on the wall. But personally,

8 it was a reminder to me personally of a worthless plaque

9 that cost me $297 because there no way that this

10 organization could have known what my performance in my

11 particular field was.

12 I then took it off the wall and used it as a

13 coffee coaster.

14 Q Did you receive a directory?

15 A Never did.

16 Q Did you receive any other billing from the company?

17 A There was a second billing for the registry, yes.

18 Q Now, what happened when you received that second

19 billing?

20 A I disregarded it. I knew pretty much at that point

21 what I felt, that I had been taken f or $297, and I wasn't

22 about to issue another, whatever the balance was.

23 Q Do you remember how much it was for the directory?
24 A I think it was equal to the first payment.
25 Q Now, did anybody tell you when you made your purchase

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4253
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 that you would have to pay an additional amount for the

2 directory?

3 A No.

4 Q What in fact was said to you on that subject?

5 A It was part of the membership benefit package that

6 was presented to me.

7 Q I am sorry, what do you mean by it was part of the

8 membership benefit package?

9 A The fact that if I became a member, I would have

10 discount rates to seminars, conferences, and, of course,

11 the registry, that my name would be included in the

12 registry.

13 Q And did the salesperson say that to you?

14 A Yes.

15 Q So, at that time did anybody ever mention "split

16 billing" at the time you made the purchase?

17 A No.

18 Q Now, when did you first begin to feel taken?

19 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q Now, Mr. Ochoa, you mentioned by that time you had

22 begun to feel taken. Can you tell us when you first felt

23 taken?
24 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
25 THE COURT: That's the same question I sustained

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4254
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 the objection to. A good try, but no go.

2 MS. SCOTT: I thought it was foundation, sorry,

3 your Honor.

4 Q Were you again contacted by the company?

5 A I was only contacted twice. One was the mailing, the

6 first mailing, and the second time was the salesman or the

7 club's representative through the telephon e.

8 (Ms. Scott confers with Mr. White.)

9 Q Now, Mr. Ochoa, I am going to read some language that

10 appears at the bottom of the invoice of

11 Government's Exhibit 63-B.

12 THE COURT: Is this the language we heard about

13 ten times already at least about the split billing?

14 MS. SCOTT: Yes, it is, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Show it to him. You don't have to

16 read it again. I think everybody knows what the language

17 is by now.

18 Q Can you take a look at that language, Mr. Ochoa.

19 Now, that language you read in the box on the

20 invoice --

21 A Yes.

22 Q Did you see it at the time you received the invoice?

23 A No, I didn't take the time. This is the second
24 billing. When I received it I probably read halfway
25 through it and disregarded it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4255
Ochoa-di rect/Scott


1 Q This bill is the bill you received after you first

2 purchased the membership; is that right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And did you receive that invoice before or after you

5 agreed to purchase the membership?

6 A This invoice?

7 Q Yes.

8 A After.

9 Q Now, did anybody ever call you and say that they were

10 a member of Who's Who Worldwide -- a member of the

11 organization, as opposed to an employee?

12 A No.

13 Q So, did you ever receive any networking calls from

14 members of Who's Who Worldwide?

15 A Not to this day.

16 MS. SCOTT: I have no further questions.

17 Thank you, Mr. Ochoa.

18 THE COURT: Cross-examination.

19 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, may I ask Ms. Scott a

20 question first?

21 THE COURT: Surely.

22 (Mr. Jenks confers with Ms. Scott.)

23
24
25

HARRY RAP APORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4256
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. JENKS:

3 Q Mr. Ochoa --

4 THE COURT: Could you just hold it a moment,

5 please, Mr. Jenks.

6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

7 proceedings.)

8 THE COURT: You may proceed.

9 MR. JENKS: Thank you.

10 Q Mr. Ochoa, you said that you felt you had been taken;

11 is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You flew all the way here from El Paso, Texas, at the

14 taxpayer's expense to tell us that; is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q The United States Government flew you here?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And when did you get here, sir?

19 A Last night.

20 Q They paid for your ticket, I take it, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And prior to them paying for your ticket, you had

23 conversations with them about you coming he re; is that
24 right?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4257
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q They told you you wouldn't have to come here to

2 testify about; is that right?

3 A I would hope so.

4 Q When you said you felt taken, when you signed up did

5 you give the membership a chance? Did you utilize any of

6 the benefits in this case?

7 A No, I didn't.

8 Q When you signed up, Ms. Scott just showed you

9 Government's Exhibit 63-D in evidence; is that correct?

10 Take a look at this, this one here.

11 JUROR NO. 5: It is over here.

12 Q Ms. Scott showed you 63-D in evidence; is that right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And this is the card with the literature that you say

15 you got in the mail?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Does it say that there is no charge or obligation on

18 your part for inclusion in the registry?

19 A You want me to read it?

20 Q No.

21 Does it say that on the card.

22 THE COURT: Show him where it is.

23 A There is no charge or obligation on your part for
24 inclusion in the registry.
25 Q You saw that before you filled out the card; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4258
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And you read this card before you filled it out; is

4 that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And you put the stamp on the card; is that correct?

7 A I put the stamp.

8 Q That's your handwriting on the card, right?

9 A It is my handwriting.

10 Q When you spoke to the salesperson on the phone, did

11 you ask the salesperson for no charge about being included

12 in the registry?

13 A No.

14 Q Did you ever inquire as to whether or not you can get

15 in the registry, or to get the benefits of being nominated

16 without paying a fee.

17 A Repeat the question?

18 Q Yes.

19 Did you ever ask the salesperson on the phone as

20 to whether or not you could be listed in the registry,

21 without a fee?

22 A I didn't have to. They said I would automatically be

23 registered in the registry.
24 Q Why would you pay for it if you could automatically
25 get in it for free?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4259
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A Exactly.

2 Q Why didn't you tell them to put me in there for

3 free. I don't want to have to pay for this?

4 A It didn't occur to me.

5 Q It didn't occur to you to try to save yourself $290

6 and get a free listing in the registry?

7 A No.

8 Q Did the government show you the listing of yourself

9 ins ide the registry?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you ever see the listing in the registry?

12 A Never have.

13 Q Do you know whether or not there are numerous other

14 members from El Paso, Texas in the book?

15 A I have never seen the registry. I don't know what is

16 in it. I don't know what it looks like.

17 Q Well, I am going to show you this, Mr. Ochoa.

18 Take a look at that. Is that you in the registry

19 there?

20 (Handed to the witness.)

21 A Yes, it is.

22 Q Is that your biographical data?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Is it accurate biographical data?
25 A It is accurate, yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4260
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q Would it say in here that it indicates that you were

2 involved in the Texas department building code

3 enforcement?

4 A Yes.

5 Q It says your favori te book is Lee Iaccoca; is that

6 right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And your favorite author is Lee Iaccoca?

9 A It was a book I was reading at the time when I was

10 contacted, yes.

11 Q Your favorite magazines are Business Week, Time,

12 etcetera?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And in order for the company to get this information,

15 you say that no one interviewed you about yourself?

16 Didn't you say that when Ms. Scott questioned you?

17 A No, I didn't say that.

18 Q You said though, that there was no qualifying

19 interview conducted of you? Did I hear you correctly to

20 say that?

21 A I don't believe I said that.

22 Q Well, you said they really didn't know about me.

23 They didn't know my achievements or background or
24 anything; is that correct?
25 A Yes. I said that in reference to the plaque that had

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFF ICIAL COURT REPORTER
4261
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 been sent to me.

2 Q You commented on the plaque when you made that

3 statement, right?

4 A Correct.

5 Q But that is not a correct statement, because in order

6 to get the biographical information of you in the book,

7 they would have to do a qualifying interview of you; is

8 that correct?

9 A Depending on what qualifying is, yes.

10 Q The salesperson had to ask you in the conversation

11 things about your background and your career achievements,

12 in order to be accepted; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And you have quite -- you had quite a lengthy

15 conversation with the salesperson, I believe you said?

16 A At least ten, 15 minutes.

17 Q On one occasion?

18 A The only one.

19 Q Okay.

20 You didn't call the company initially, and the

21 company didn't ca ll you, correct?

22 A I didn't call the company. The company called me.

23 Q They sent you the literature first, and then you sent
24 back the card and then you received a call; is that
25 correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4262
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A Yes.

2 Q And no one picked up the phone and cold called you;

3 is that correct?

4 Withdrawn.

5 You weren't sitting home one day and just got a

6 call out of the clear blue from Who's Who Worldwide; is

7 that correct?

8 A No. They didn't call at home. They called my place

9 of business.

10 Q In other words, this was after you sent back the

11 card; am I correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q 63-D?

14 A Yes.

15 Q All right.

16 And then you received a telephone call?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you sent back the card. The salesperson called

21 you. You were in your office?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And at the time were you working for the police
24 department in El Paso?
25 A No, I was working for the building department.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4263
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q Okay.

2 When you got the call saying you were nominated

3 for inclusion in the registry, did that call appeal to

4 your ego, sir?

5 A My ego?

6 Q Yes.

7 A It appealed to my future plans.

8 Q All right.

9 But you told Ms. Scott and this jury that the

10 primary reason you signed up to be in the registry is

11 because you were told that you had been nominated?

12 A Correct.

13 Q But you recall filling out a questionnaire for the

14 government? Do you recall that?

15 A For the postmaster, yes.

16 Q For the United States Postal Inspection Service?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And do you recall being asked a question: What were

19 the primary reasons for your decision to purchase a

20 directory or become a member?

21 Do you recall that question in the questionnaire?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Do you recall saying business contacts was the
24 primary reason?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4264
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q So, it wasn't that you were nominated that was the

2 primary reason to become a member of Who's Who, but,

3 rather, to try to utilize the Who's Who membership for

4 business contacts; is that right?

5 A That was part of the benefits of becoming a member.

6 Q You wanted to join this organization for business

7 contacts, right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did you ever in any way, shape or form try to utilize

10 the benefits of membership to network with anyone?

11 A Counselor, there was no way I could do that, because

12 the only information that I ever got from this company was

13 the letter and the phone call, there was nothing else.

14 There were no announcements of conferences, no

15 announcement of seminars. There was no registry I could

16 look up so I could utilize the information and network.

17 Q Did you ever in any way, shape or form -- withdrawn.

18 You use this words, and I am sitting here

19 listening to it, that you had been, quote, taken? That's

20 the words?

21 A Exactly the way I felt, yes.

22 Q You were taken, yes?

23 A I was taken, yes.
24 Q And did you ever give this company and its benefits a
25 chance to work for you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4265
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A How so?

2 Q Well, did you call them up and say, I never received

3 any of the literature on the benefits? Did you do that?

4 A I am the member, they are the company.

5 Q Yes or no? Did you call them up?

6 A No.

7 Q You were taken but you never asked for a refund, did

8 you?

9 A No, I didn't have.

10 Q You were taken, but you never filed a complaint with

11 anyone in the State of Texas how you were taken?

12 A No, that's correct.

13 Q You were taken, but you never filed a complaint and

14 got off of wherever you were to file or register a

15 complaint until you were contacted by the United States

16 Government?

17 A That's correct. And een I didn't think

18 anything would become of it.

19 Q You told them you were willing to fly to New York; is

20 that right?

21 A Well, not -- at the very last minute, counselor, I

22 called the paralegal and told them that I wasn't coming,

23 because I felt it was too much of a hassle, and I honestly
24 didn't think anything was going to come of this.
25 They did inform me I was under subpoena, and if I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 didn't, that the marshals would be sent.

2 Q Did they give you a subpoena to testify here?

3 A I was subpoenaed, yes.

4 Q Do you have the subpoena with you?

5 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

6 proceedings.)

7 Q Is that the subpoena?

8 A Yes.

9 Q When did you receive that subpoena?

10 A Yesterday.

11 Q When you got here?

12 A No.

13 Q You received it at your house?

14 A I received a copy of the subpoena.

15 Q A copy, okay?

16 A A fax copy, yes.

17 Q By fax machine?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You received this subpoena by fax machine?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you received it yesterday?

22 A Yesterday.

23 Q And that's after you told the government that you
24 didn't want to appear here?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4267
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q That just came across your fax machine in Texas

2 yesterday that subpoena?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Did you tell the government prior to the receipt of

5 that subpoena that you didn't want to testify in this

6 case?

7 A No. I didn't tell the government that I didn't want

8 to testify until I received the instructions that came

9 with the subpoena, because it placed the burden of cost on

10 me, plus the fact I am not familiar with New York, plus

11 the fact that I felt it was too much of a hassle. And it

12 was then that I called -- maybe about two or three hours

13 before I took the flight to come here.

14 Q To try to get out of coming here?

15 A I wasn't trying to get out. I was just telling I

16 wasn't going to be here.

17 Q Right. You didn't really want to be here; is that

18 right?

19 A At the last minute, no.

20 Q You didn't expend any money on your part to come

21 here, and you are not going to expend any money; would

22 that be a fair statement?

23 A Fair enough.
24 Q The government is going to reimburse you for your
25 expenses; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4268
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A Correct.

2 Q Now, you work currently, you said as a supervisor for

3 the El Paso Police Department; is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you work with uniform police officers everyday in

6 El P aso?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q You are part of the law enforcement agency; is that

9 correct?

10 A I am part of the administration of the law

11 enforcement administration, yes.

12 Q You work for the government in I take it the State of

13 Texas; is that correct?

14 A I work for the municipal government.

15 Q All right. In the State of Texas?

16 A In the State of Texas.

17 Q You are a supervisor there; is that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You supervise civilian employees employed in the

20 capacity of the El Paso Police Department?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And you say when you received this literature, it

23 says that you were nominated by another member?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you have that nomination letter with you that you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4269
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 received?

2 A It was five years ago, counselor.

3 Q You remember the conversations you had with the

4 salesperson like it was just a half an hour ago.

5 A Uh-huh.

6 Q Is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q You have had numerous conversations on the phone

9 since 1993, haven't you?

10 A Absolutely.

11 Q You never filed a complaint with anyone in this case,

12 did you?

13 A I didn't think it would do any good to file a

14 complaint.

15 Q In fact, you didn't do anything until June 28th,

16 1995, until you filled out the questionnaire the

17 government provided you; is that right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q No one contacted you from June of 1993 to June of

20 1995; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Two years had elapsed before you even knew anything

23 about a questionnaire being in the case; is that correct?
24 A Or anything about the organiza tion that I was
25 supposed to be a member of, yes, that's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4270
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q Yet, you testified here like these conversations took

2 place ten minutes ago, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Like you remember them like yesterday, right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Two -- some three and a half years later; is that

7 correct?

8 A Correct.

9 Q So, where is the nomination letter you got stating

10 you were nominated by another member?

11 A That was five years ago, counselor.

12 Q Where is it? You don't know, do you?

13 A It was filed in my files for about two to three years

14 after that and I finally got rid of the file.

15 Q Did the government ever show you a letter saying you

16 were nominated by another member?

17 A No.

18 Q Well, let me show you 60-H, which is i n evidence

19 already. It is not a letter made out to you.

20 Take a look at Government's Exhibit 60-H.

21 (Handed to the witness.)

22 Q Was this the language you received, or did yours

23 specifically say you were nominated by another member for
24 inclusion?
25 A This document is not to me, first of all.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4271
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Secondly --

2 Q You remember -- you have a clear recollection of what

3 you said three and a half years ago on the telephone to

4 some person in New York. You must have a clear

5 recollection as to what you got in the letter. Is this

6 the language you received in the letter, you were recently

7 nominated for possible inclusion in the Who's Who Registry

8 of global business leaders?

9 A I don't know. Counsel. This letter is not addressed

10 t o me. The letter I have is no longer in existence

11 because I threw it away.

12 Q You would agree with me that there is a serious

13 difference between receiving a letter saying you were

14 recently nominated for possible inclusion, and you were

15 nominated by another member for inclusion, you agree it is

16 a big difference?

17 A Right.

18 Q Did the government show you any letter anywhere that

19 shows that you personally, Salvador Ochoa, Jr. were

20 nominate by some other existing member of Who's Who?

21 A Not that I can recall, counsel.

22 Q You can't find the letter either?

23 A I told you I destroyed a letter.
24 Q It is fair in that letter you were told that there is
25 no cost or obligation on your part to become a member,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4272
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 right, in the origina l literature?

2 A There was a cost attached to the membership.

3 Q You say -- you said when you called the salesperson,

4 spoke to the salesperson they said they couldn't divulge

5 who nominated you?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Could they have said at my level I wouldn't know who

8 nominated you?

9 A Not what was said.

10 Q Your testimony is that the caller said they couldn't

11 divulge it to you; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q If I told you there was a pitch sheet that said the

14 salespeople were supposed to say that at my level I

15 wouldn't have that information, do you recall ever hearing

16 that in the conversation concerning your nomination?

17 A No.

18 Q The sales -- your testimony is that that salesperson

19 never told you at their level they wouldn't know that

20 information?

21 A No.

22 Q Now, did you ask who this m ember was who had

23 nominated you?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q You say that was important to you at the time; is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4273
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 that correct?

2 A It was.

3 Q Why would you buy a membership without knowing who

4 the member was that nominated you into the directory if it

5 was such an important criteria?

6 A Because the presentation was so good and so

7 convincing that I bought into it.

8 Q You accepted it based on the conversation you had

9 with the salesperson on the phone; is that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q It doesn't mean you were defrauded, does it?

12 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q Now, you said, you literally asked the caller if this

15 thing was a scam; is that right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q That's what you said?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And even after having your initial skepticism about

20 membership, you still decided voluntarily on your own free

21 will, to give your credit card number over the telephone

22 to the caller; am I correct?

23 A Yes, that's correct.
24 Q You decided to buy a membership in the registry,
25 right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4274
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 A Yes.

2 Q Now, you also testified that nobody told you about

3 this $97 in the registry that you would have to pay at a

4 later date; is that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Take a look at the pink form in front of you, which

7 is 63-B, that Ms. Scott had shown you.

8 That's tin voice you received; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q It says your membership became effective June 9th,

11 1993; is that correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q You received this invoice shortly after your

14 membership became effective; is that right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And you see where it says one 5-year membership,

17 split billing, up under the word "details"?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You saw that?

20 A Yes.

21 Q You saw where Ms. Scott brought it to your attention

22 in the box at the bottom which indicates that in the

23 future there is going to be a payment due in December of
24 $97?
25 A Correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4275
Ochoa-direct/Scott


1 Q Did you read this invoice when you got it in the

2 mail?

3 A Counsel, I didn't get beyond one 5-year membership

4 split billing. And to me that indicated that there was a

5 second cost that was going to have to be paid. And I

6 didn't read any further than that.

7 Q Well, did you call the m up and ask them why there

8 would be a second cost that would have to be paid?

9 A No, because at that time I felt that it was useless.

10 Q Your answer is no?

11 A The answer is no.

12 Q Did you write them a letter?

13 A Didn't you write them a letter.

14 Q Didn't do anything, correct?

15 A Didn't do anything, correct.

16 Q Yet, you were taken in and thought it was a scam,

17 right?

18 A That's why I didn't do anything. I felt it was a

19 scam and I had been taken.

20 Q Have a nice day, sir.

21 A Thank you, you, too.

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4276
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. TRABULUS:

3 Q Mr. Ochoa, you said when you got the invoice, 63-B,

4 by that time you decided already there was a scam; is that

5 righ t?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Nothing happened between the time you gave your

8 credit card number and agreed to purchase a membership,

9 and the time you received this invoice; is that correct?

10 In other words, there was no other communications back or

11 forth between you and the company; is that correct?

12 A The only two communications, as I mentioned before,

13 that I ever had with the company, was first --

14 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Unresponsive.

15 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.

16 Q Let me ask you the question again, and make it a

17 little easier to you, between the day you had the

18 telephone conversation and gave your credit card number

19 and paid the purchase, and the day you got this invoice in

20 the mail, had you heard anything from the company?

21 A Somewhere in-between there I received a plaque,

22 counsel.

23 Q The plaque actually came before t he invoice; is that
24 correct?
25 A Probably. I don't remember exactly the date when I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4277
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 received it.

2 Q Before you paid you got the plaque?

3 A I doubt that very seriously.

4 Q The lead card, I think you read it to us, was May

5 18th; is that correct? You have it there. It is hard for

6 me to read it on my copy. It is 63-D.

7 A 27 May, 1993.

8 Q 27 May, 1993. And the invoice is dated June 10th,

9 and it shows an effective membership date of June 9th; is

10 that correct?

11 A Yes --

12 Q When you got the invoice, did those dates seem

13 correct, the long period of time?

14 A As to what.

15 Q When you got the invoice, was it already August?

16 A I don't recall.

17 Q Did the dates seem wrong to you when you got it?

18 A I don't recall, counselor.

19 Q Are you still certain you got the plaque before you

20 got the invoice?

21 A No.

22 Q It is possible you got the plaque after you got the

23 invoice?
24 A It is possible.
25 Q So, when you got the invoice, whether or not you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4278
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 already received the plaque, and whether or not you

2 received anything in the meanwhile, you already decided on

3 your own it was a scam; is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And nothing happened between the date you agreed to

6 make the purchase, and the date that you received the

7 invoice, except that perhaps you received the plaque; is

8 that correct?

9 A Counselor, again, nothing has happened.

10 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Well, I am going to strike t he answer

12 as not being responsive.

13 Mr. Ochoa, you are going to be asked a lot of

14 questions that call for a yes or no answer. If you can't

15 say yes or no, say so, rather than make an explanation.

16 In this, if you can't answer the question in the manner

17 counsel wants you to by a yes or no, you say, I can't

18 answer that question yes or no.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Then he has to decide what to do at

21 that point.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

23 Q Mr. Ochoa, isn't what happened is you had a change of
24 heart on your own? Yes or no, sir?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4279
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Isn't it so that what you had is what is called

2 buyer's remorse?

3 A No.

4 Q Now, you told us the reason you went through with it

5 was the sales presentation was effective?

6 A Yes.

7 Q It was a really good and effective presentation?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And is it correct that when you filled out the

10 questionnaire, the questionnaire sent by the Postal

11 Service, you said the person you spoke to wouldn't give

12 you his own name; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Did you ask for his own name?

15 A Yes.

16 Q A person who wouldn't give you his own name, also

17 wouldn't tell you the name of the person who nominated

18 you; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q You found that convincing; is that correct?

21 A It wasn't part of the presentation.

22 Q You found this person persuasive in allaying your

23 fears at the time that there might be a scam; is that your
24 testimony?
25 A Not persuasive, but knowledgeable of the procedures

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4280
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 of Who's Who Worldwide.

2 Q When you filled out the questionnaire for the postal

3 inspectors, you told them that you asked the caller who it

4 was who nominated you, but you were given, quote, the run

5 around? Is that what you wrote down there?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And that is part of what you found to be reassuring

8 or persuasive that there was not any kind of a scam?

9 A No.

10 Q You testified here the most important thing for you

11 in terms of determining as to whether to make a purchase,

12 was that you had been nominated; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And do you recall being asked in this questionnaire,

15 this question, and giving this answer, and this is number

16 26, on Exhibit 3500-SO1.

17 Question: What were the most important

18 statements or representations made by the company which

19 affected your decision to purchase a directory or become a

20 member?

21 Your answer in your handwriting: Inclusion in

22 the directory for business contacts.

23 Do you recall that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Mr. Ochoa, would it be of interest to you to know

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4281
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 that there are 147 members of this organization who list

2 their address in El Paso?

3 A Not any more, counsel.

4 Q Do you know -- have you heard -- in the building and

5 construction industry in El Paso, do you know the name of

6 flamingo Pools and Spas?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Banes --

9 THE COURT: You are picking up speed again,

10 Mr. Trabulus.

11 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry, your Honor, I am reading:

12 Q Banes General Contract, B A N E S?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Do you know the name of Rudy G. Construction?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And do you know Rudolph Gonzalez, the president?

17 A Do I know him? No.

18 Q Would you know Wickes, W I C K E S -Palace, Inc.?

19 A It doesn't sound familiar.

20 Q Do you know of a Linda P. Wickes in construction?

21 A No.

22 Q James E. Winser, W I N S E R, of CF Jordan, Inc.?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you know him?
25 A No, I don't know him. I know the company.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4282
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 Q I have listed the names of five companies; is that

2 correct, or five different outfits and some names of

3 individuals as well?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you were familiar with the names of four of those

6 five companies?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And would it be of interest to you to know that they

9 were either presidents or ot her management personnel in

10 each of those five companies who were members of Who's Who

11 Worldwide?

12 A What was the question?

13 Q Would it have been of interest to know that?

14 A It might have been.

15 Q It might have helped you in networking?

16 A It might have, yes.

17 Q Those are all companies located within El Paso,

18 Texas; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q All within the construction industry?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Now, when you had the conversation with the

23 salesperson, did he tell you you were going to get a
24 plaque?
25 A I don't recall whether he told me or whether it was

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4283
Ochoa-cross/Trabulus


1 already written in part of the applications, I don't

2 recall.

3 Q Do you recall him asking you any -- you asking him

4 questions ab out the plaque?

5 A The plaque was something that was really not

6 important to me.

7 Q Did you have any conception in your mind as to what

8 might be on the plaque?

9 A What usually is on the plaque. No.

10 Q You received a plaque?

11 A Yes, I received a plaque, yes.

12 Q As you opened the package, was there something you

13 expect to have had it say?

14 A No.

15 Q You didn't expect it to be blank, did you?

16 A Why would you get a blank?

17 Q And yet, you say when you got the plaque it said that

18 it was awarded to you; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Did you expect it to say -- just have your name on it

21 and say nothing else?

22 A I didn't know what to expect, counselor. The plaque

23 was not important.
24 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
25 THE COURT: Anything else?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4284
Ochoa-cross/Neville


1

2 CROSS-EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. NEVILLE:

4 Q Hello, my name is Jim Neville, Mr. Ochoa.

5 Sir, you said that the salesperson who spoke to

6 you was very convincing?

7 A He was very knowledgeable about the company he was

8 talking about, yes.

9 Q And you are sure it was a male salesperson?

10 A The voice to me represented a voice of a male

11 individual. I may be wrong. I don't know.

12 Q You said that you had asked this individual his name,

13 assuming it was a male, you asked him his name?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And this person, assuming it was a male, refused to

16 give you his name?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Showing the witness 63-C for Identification.

19 Mr. Ochoa, I am going to ask you, would you look

20 at the top right-hand corner and read that name up there.

21 D oes that refresh your recollection as to the male that

22 you spoke to?

23 A No, I never received this document until today, sir.
24 Q I am asking you if the name in the upper right-hand
25 corner jogs your memory as to who it was?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4285
Ochoa-cross/Neville


1 A No.

2 Q Have you ever heard that name before?

3 A Frank Penny, no.

4 Q Sir, you don't know whether the person who spoke to

5 you was Frank Penny?

6 A No.

7 Q But it could have been Frank Penny?

8 A It could have been Jim Neville.

9 Q That was good.

10 Mr. Ochoa, all kidding aside, you bought

11 something that you were disappointed with; is that right?

12 A The truth is that I was sold on this company, on this

13 membership. I felt that it would have been good for me in

14 the future.

15 Q What ha ppened with your idea to open your business?

16 A It is still there.

17 Q How is it doing?

18 A I am at -- I still need to -- I still need about

19 three years to retire from the City of El Paso. I had

20 registered with assumed names, with the County of El Paso,

21 with the company name.

22 Q Any particular type of construction that you are

23 going to do or that you are doing?
24 A Remodelling and probably home construction.
25 Q And between 5:30 and 6:00 tonight, I am going to buy

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4286
Ochoa-cross/Neville


1 a contract to buy a house. Are you interested in helping

2 me do it over?

3 MR. NEVILLE: I have no further questions.

4 Take care.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

6

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. DUNN:

9 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Ochoa.

10 A Go od afternoon.

11 Q My name is Thomas Dunn.

12 You have family in El Paso, obviously. Any

13 family in San Antonio?

14 A No.

15 Q Any family in Houston?

16 A My son just moved there, as a matter of fact, a

17 couple of months ago.

18 Q Any people you know in Houston or San Antonio besides

19 your son that just moved to Houston?

20 A Just in relatives, distant relatives.

21 Q Distant relatives in Houston?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Any distant relatives in San Antonio?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, you didn't really want to come here today; is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4287
Ochoa-cross/Dunn


1 that correct?

2 A It was a last minute decision. No.

3 Q You didn't want to come, correct? Deep down, deep

4 down, you didn't want to be bothered to come up here; is

5 that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q But the government told you that if you didn't come

8 they would send some U.S. Marshals to bring you up here?

9 Is that basically what they told you?

10 A They mentioned the fact that I was subpoenaed and

11 that I was obligated to fulfill the subpoena. I did ask

12 the paralegal to go ahead and send the marshals, because

13 it would have been easier for me to have the marshals to

14 bring me directly here.

15 MR. DUNN: No further questions, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Any redirect?

17 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.

18

19 REDIRECT-EXAMINATION

20 BY MS. SCOTT:

21 Q Mr. Ochoa, you just testified you didn't want to come

22 here to testify today; is that correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And you stated to the paralegal it would be actually
25 easier for you if the marshals came and brought you here;

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OF FICIAL COURT REPORTER
4288
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 is that correct?

2 A Correct. That was a joke between the paralegal and

3 myself.

4 Q What was it that -- why was it that you didn't want

5 to come here today?

6 A I didn't want to come here because after reading the

7 instructions again sent to me with the subpoena, I felt it

8 was too much of a hassle.

9 Q When you say it was too much of a hassle, what are

10 you referring to specifically?

11 A I had to fly from El Paso to Dallas, lay over in

12 Dallas, take a second flight from Dallas to LaGuardia.

13 Then I was expecting to take a cab ride from LaGuardia to

14 the hotel. Not being familiar with New York and the size

15 of the city, it was somewhat intimidating to me.

16 Q So the hassles involved with the trip were really the

17 only reasons why you didn't want to come to New York and

18 testify?

19 A That's right.

20 Q Now, Mr. Jenks asked you about whether you took

21 advantage of other benefits offered by the company; do you

22 remember that?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And do you remember you said you did not take
25 advantage of any benefits?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4289
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 A Yes.

2 Q Did you receive any information about benefits?

3 A Nothing.

4 Q Did you receive any communication from the company

5 other than the ones you described so far?

6 A Nothing.

7 Q Now, do you remember testifying that you didn't

8 believe that the company knew very much about you?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And do you remember testifying that you -- when you

11 were cross-examined on that statement, you testified that

12 you made it in reference to the plaque; is that right ?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Can you tell us what you meant?

15 A You receive a plaque from a company you barely know,

16 and the company barely knows you. And the plaque states

17 for outstanding achievements for the year, '93, '94, I

18 believe. There was in my mind no way that this company,

19 after having one conversation on the phone and one

20 application, can possibly know what performance, what job

21 performance I was doing for them to send a plaque praising

22 my achievements, because they don't know what they are.

23 It is impossible for them to know what they are.
24 Q Now, you were asked a lot of questions about feeling
25 taken; do you remember those questions?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4290
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you remember being asked when your feeling of

3 taken first arose?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Do you remember being asked if anything happened in

6 connection with your communications with the company that

7 led to you feeling taken?

8 A No, I don't recall that.

9 Q Do you remember being asked by Mr. Trabulus as to

10 whether your feeling of being taken arose from something

11 that the company did or said to you after you agreed to

12 purchase the membership?

13 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. It wasn't the

14 question.

15 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.

16 Q Well, Mr. Ochoa, can you tell us what gave rise to

17 your feeling of being taken?

18 A It was -- I began doubting the membership information

19 toward the end of my conversations with the telephone

20 caller. And those feelings were reinforced when I

21 received the plaque.

22 After receiving the plaque, it was pretty much at

23 least in my mind that that was about all I was going to
24 get.
25 Q Now, when you have doubts during your conversation

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4291
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 with the salesperson, you asked the salesperson about

2 that, didn't you?

3 A Yes.

4 Q In fact, you asked the salesperson whether this was a

5 scam?

6 A Yes, I did.

7 Q How did he respond to you?

8 A I asked twice. The first time there was a pause.

9 The second time he came back with, Mr. Ochoa, we are Who's

10 Who Worldwide. We have members all over the world. We

11 have CEOs, we have presidents, we have all kinds of

12 business people. He went on to reiterate all of the

13 benefits of the -- of becoming a member.

14 Q Did those statements have an effect on you?

15 A That's what I meant when I said in the question that

16 was brought up about the run around. He did nothing more

17 than give me the run around. He never got the name of the

18 individual I was supposed to have -- that was supposed to

19 have nominated me.

20 Q And you mentioned his comments were convincing; is

21 that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 He sounded sincere when he was speaking about
24 Who's Who Worldwide.
25 Q And you also mentioned he sounded knowledgeable; is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4292
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 that right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Do you remember being asked about the main reason why

4 you purchased this membership?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks pointing you to something

7 you said in your questionnaire, that the main reason was

8 that you wanted it for business contacts?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Now, do you have the questionnaire in front of you?

11 I am sorry, you don't.

12 I am showing you Government's Exhibit 3500-SO-1.

13 (Handed to the witness.)

14 Q Can you take a look at question 15 on that

15 questionnaire.

16 A Yes.

17 Q That's the questionnaire you filled out; is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes, it is.

20 Q That's the questionnaire in which you stated that one

21 of the main reasons why you purchased this membership was

22 for the business contacts; is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, can you tell us what you said there under
25 question 15?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4293
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 Actually, first read the question to us.

2 A The question reads --

3 MR. NELSON: Objection.

4 MR. JENKS: Objection.

5 MR. DUNN: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Well, I am going to allow you to get

7 into that. But the question is how to do it.

8 MS. SCOTT: May I ask him?

9 THE COURT: You can ask the question, yes.

10 MS. SCOTT: Can I have him read aloud what he

11 said?

12 THE COURT: I think you can. Overruled.

13 Q Mr. Ochoa, would you read aloud question 15.

14 A If you were told anything about how the company

15 obtained your name, how did this affect your decision to

16 purchase a directory/membership?

17 MR. LEE: Objection, bolstering.

18 THE COURT: Pardon me?

19 MR. LEE: Objection. Bolstering.

20 THE COURT: Overruled. It was brought up on

21 cross-examination. It is perfectly proper to complete the

22 answer that you or somebody else raised.

23 Q Mr. Ochoa, can you tell us the answer that you gave
24 to that question?
25 A Yes. My response was --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4294
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 MR. DUNN: Objection to him reading the answer.

2 THE COURT: Overruled. All of you have an

3 objection and you are all overruled. Let's keep the

4 record nice and plain.

5 Go ahead.

6 A My response was: I felt that if I had been nominated

7 the organization sounded like it was legal, truthful, and

8 worth the try.

9 THE COURT: T R Y?

10 THE WITNESS: T R Y.

11 Q Thank you, Mr. Ochoa.

12 Now, do you remember being asked further

13 questions about your memory of what the first letter that

14 you received said?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And in particular do you remember Mr. Jenks asking

17 you how it is that you remember so clearly what that

18 letter said to you?

19 A Yes.

20 Q How is it that you remember that so clearly?

21 A Well, experience is a wonderful teacher, I think.

22 When I -- I don't know about others, but when I experience

23 something first-hand, the memories of that experience
24 linger for many, many years afterwards. Some are
25 positive, some are negative.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4295
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 Q How is it that you remember that statement in the

2 letter so clearly?

3 A Because I felt it was a portion that I needed to

4 remember, so I will not make the same mistake again.

5 Q And by the same mistake, what are you referring to?

6 A There are many mail order companies using --

7 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Strike it out the answer. The jury is instructed

10 to disregard it.

11 Q Now, Mr. Jenks asked you if you complained to anybody

12 about your misgivings about this purchase; do you remember

13 him asking you that?

14 A Yes, yes.

15 Q Do you r ecall saying that the reason you didn't

16 complain is because precisely you thought it was a scam?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Now, would it have served any purpose to complain to

19 a company if it was in fact a scam?

20 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

21 MR. JENKS: Objection.

22 MR. LEE: Objection.

23 MR. DUNN: Objection.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Trabulus going through the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4296
Ochoa-redirect/Scott


1 book and mentioning the names of certain people in El Paso

2 who are Who's Who members, who are listed in that book?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And do you remember being asked if you heard any of

5 those people, or any of those companies?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Did you ever see the listing in the book before

8 today?

9 A Not until today.

10 Q Did you ever have an opportunity to know that those

11 people were in the book before today?

12 A No.

13 Q Did you ever in fact see the book before today?

14 A Never had.

15 Q Now, when you made your purchase initially, were you

16 interested in networking with people from a mailing list?

17 A No.

18 Q And --

19 MR. LEE: Objection as to form, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike out the answer.

21 The jury is instructed to disregard it.

22 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Ochoa.

23 Thank you, your Honor.
24 No further questions.
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4297
Ochoa-cross/Lee


1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. LEE:

3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Ochoa, my name is Winston Lee.

4 Just now Ms. Scott asked you a question, and your

5 response was that the person on the phone informed you in

6 response that we have international members, we have CEOs,

7 we have presidents. Do you recall you just said that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Now, just so I am clear, as you sit here today, are

10 you of the belief that when that person made that

11 statement to you, he was misrepresenting the registry?

12 A Whether he was misrepresenting --

13 Q Do you understand my question? Yes or no?

14 A I can't understand that question, Mr. Lee.

15 Q Let me try to make it clear, sir, let me try to make

16 it clear.

17 Right now as you sit here you recall that that

18 person said to you, we have a membership that is

19 international; you recall that, right?

20 A No. He said worldwide.

21 Q First of all he said, sir, we are Who's Who

22 Worldwide; that's what he said, right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And then he said we have a worldwide membership, yes?
25 A Yes.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4298
Ochoa-cross/Lee


1 Q Is that what he said?

2 As you sit here now, is it your belief that that

3 was a lie that this person said to you over the phone,

4 that they are in fact a worldwide -- they have a worldwide

5 membership?

6 A Mr. Lee, the only information that I have of this

7 organization is the information that I read in the

8 application, and the information that was given to me by

9 the caller. That's it.

10 Q So, in preparation for your testimony here, and

11 before you got on the witness stand to testify for the

12 government, they never told you about this company, right?

13 A In terms of what?

14 Q Did they give you a chance to review the registry and

15 just learn about this company that you never had a chance

16 to use? Did they do that? Did they let you look at the

17 registry?

18 A No.

19 Q They did not say, look at this, sir, this is the

20 company that you are testifying against? Did they give

21 you a chance to learn about the company?

22 A No.

23 Q Did they in fact tell you that they -- it did have a
24 worldwide membership?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4299
Ochoa-cross/Lee


1 Q Did they tell you that?

2 A No.

3 Q Did they tell you that in fact a majority of the

4 people in this registry that you never had an opportunity

5 to look at and use were managers, presidents, CEOs? Did

6 they tell you that?

7 A No.

8 Q So, as you sit here you are of the impression, are

9 you not, that there is not a worldwide membership, right?

10 That's your impression of this scam organization, they

11 have no worldwide membership, right? That's yo ur

12 impression?

13 A Counselor, I forgot about this company a long time

14 ago.

15 Q I am saying as you sit here now, your perception of

16 this company, that it is a slipshod, fly by night

17 operation with no worldwide membership? That's your

18 perception of them, right? Is that what you think this

19 is?

20 A That is for the jury to decide.

21 Q No, what do you think, sir, your perception.

22 A I have no judgment on that. I can tell you that I

23 forgot about this company a long time ago.
24 Q But it is a fact that the government never dissuaded
25 you of this -- of your perception that this is a scam?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4300
Ochoa-cross/Lee


1 They never bothered to let you learn about this

2 organization and what was involved there, did they?

3 A I don't think it was their responsi bility to do

4 that. I think it was the organization's responsibility to

5 do that.

6 MR. LEE: I have no further questions.

7 THE COURT: Anything else?

8 MR. TRABULUS: Could I see Exhibit 63-B, the

9 original? Is it up there?

10 MS. SCOTT: Yes.

11 MR. TRABULUS: Excuse me.

12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

13 proceedings.)

14

15 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

16 BY MR. TRABULUS:

17 Q Very briefly, Mr. Ochoa.

18 If indeed there were a substantial number of CEOs

19 in the organization, would that have confirmed what you

20 were told by the man who spoke to you?

21 A If in fact there were, yes, it would confirm it.

22 Q If in fact there was a substantial number of

23 presidents in the company or owners of businesses, would
24 that conform to what he told you?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP , CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4301
Ochoa-recross/Trabulus


1 Q If indeed there were members in Russia or China,

2 would that also conform to what he told you?

3 A Yes.

4 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.

5 THE COURT: Anything else?

6

7 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

8 BY MS. SCOTT:

9 Q Mr. Ochoa, if the members of Who's Who Worldwide came

10 from mailing lists would that also confirm what the

11 salespeople told you?

12 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 MS. SCOTT: No further questions.

15 THE COURT: You may step down.

16 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the

17 witness stand.)

18 MR. SCHOER: May we have a limiting instruction?

19 THE COURT: In what regard?

20 MR. SCHOER: His testimony is only offered

21 against the corporation?

22 THE COURT: Is that correct, Ms. Scott?

23 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Against Who's Who Worldwide
25 Registry?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4302

1 MS. SCOTT: Yes.

2 THE COURT: You may proceed.

3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we are going to be

4 playing some tapes next.

5 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

6 proceedings.)

7 THE COURT: Please proceed.

8 MR. WHITE: The Exhibit is 1330, the transcript

9 is 1330A. It is a telephone call to worldwide. The

10 salesperson is the defendant Steve Rubin. It is not

11 December 13th, 1994.

12 (Tape is played.)

13 MR. GEDULDIG: I am not hearing anything.

14 MR. WHITE: I hear it.

15 MR. GEDULDIG: I don't.

16 THE COURT: You are not hearing it,

17 Mr. Geduldig?

18 MR. GEDULDIG: No.

19 MR. DUNN: It is this table here, your Honor.

20 THE COU RT: That table is not hearing it. Maybe

21 something is not connected. Do you wish to check it?

22 While you are doing that, Mr. White, did you name

23 a date that this occurred?
24 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Where do you get the date from?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4303

1 MR. WHITE: It is reflected on the exhibit, the

2 actual date.

3 THE COURT: I see, on the bottom is this?

4 JUROR NO. 7: That's the date the transcript was

5 done.

6 MR. WHITE: The date is reflected on the date.

7 THE COURT: What date did you say it was?

8 MR. WHITE: December 13th, 1994.

9 THE COURT: And with whom is this conversation?

10 MR. WHITE: Steve Rubin, a/k/a Steve Walden.

11 MR. NEVILLE: We found it now. It was

12 disconnected over here.

13 THE COURT: Start it all over again.

14 MR. W HITE: Yes, your Honor.

15 (Tape is played.)

16 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next one is

17 Exhibit 1391. This is a recording made by an employee at

18 Worldwide on December 23rd, 1994. We are going to be

19 playing the excerpt that is on page 3 of the transcript,

20 which is 1391 A.

21 JUROR NO. 6: We don't have 1391 A.

22 JUROR NO. 12: Yes, you do.

23 JUROR NO: 6: He said page 3:
24 THE COURT: This is Elliott Zale, Z A L E?
25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, yes, on page 3, the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4304

1 excerpt we intend to play is between Elliott Zale and

2 Frank Martin.

3 THE COURT: All right.

4 (Tape is played.)

5 MR. NEVILLE: Who is on there?

6 MR. WHITE: It is reflected on the transcript.

7 MR. NEVILLE: Well, say it.

8 MR. WHITE: I did. Elliott Zale and Frank

9 Mart in.

10 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

11 proceedings.)

12 MR. WHITE: The next one, your Honor, is 1395.

13 And the transcript is 1395-A; recorded by an employee at

14 Worldwide, January 6th, 1995.

15 (Tape is played.)

16 MR. WHITE: The next one is 1398. The transcript

17 is 1398-A. It is recorded by an employee at Who's Who

18 Worldwide on January 27th, 1995.

19 (Tape is played.)

20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next one is

21 Exhibit 1400. The Exhibit is 1400-A, and the excerpt we

22 are going to play is the second one that starts with

23 Mr. Gordon, my problem is, on page 1 of that.
24 This is recorded on February 7th, 1995, by a
25 Worldwide employee.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4305

1 MR. TRABULUS: When you say a Worldwide employee,

2 you mean acting for the governmen t; is that right?

3 THE COURT: I didn't hear what Mr. Trabulus

4 said.

5 MR. TRABULUS: The stipulation indicated that it

6 was at the government's instance that this was recorded by

7 a government employee.

8 MR. WHITE: Correct. The terms of the

9 stipulation I read the other day.

10 MR. NELSON: With respect to this particular

11 recording, I would ask for a limited instruction that it

12 is offered with respect to the employee of Sterling Who's

13 Who.

14 THE COURT: Is that correct?

15 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor. It was made by an

16 employee of Who's Who Worldwide.

17 MR. NELSON: Mike Powers was of Sterling Who's

18 Who.

19 MR. WHITE: Not on this day.

20 MR. NEVILLE: How about the salespeople who were

21 present?

22 MR. WHITE: Do you know who was there?

23 MR. NEVILLE: You are prosecuting.
24 THE COURT: This is of fered as against Who's Who
25 Worldwide Registry, Inc.?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4306

1 MR. WHITE: Correct.

2 THE COURT: Correct?

3 MR. WHITE: Correct.

4 (Tape is played.)

5 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next recording, we

6 have to unhook this type of recorder and hook up another

7 one, if you wish to end for the day?

8 THE COURT: There will not be time, all right.

9 Members of the jury, we are going to recess until

10 Tuesday, which is the 17th of February, the 16th being a

11 holiday, President's Day.

12 Do not discuss the day among yourselves or anyone

13 else. Keep an open mind. Come to no conclusions. Do not

14 do any research. Have a nice weekend and a holiday on

15 Monday. We will see you at 9:30 on the 17th, Tuesday the

16 17th of February.

17 Have a nice weekend.

18 (W hereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

19 courtroom.)

20 THE COURT: What about Tuesday, Mr. White?

21 MR. WHITE: Tuesday I expect Mr. Watstein, who

22 was here the last week and didn't get on, and Wilma

23 P I N C H A M, Pincham, and perhaps some additional tapes.
24 THE COURT: Will that be enough for the entire
25 day?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4307

1 MR. WHITE: I think they will have quite a lot

2 for Mr. Watstein, yes.

3 THE COURT: Is Mr. Watstein the person who is the

4 voice on this recording?

5 MR. WHITE: Yes, the call we heard today was

6 Mr. Watstein, yes.

7 THE COURT: All right.

8 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, in connection with the

9 prior consistent statement, you told me the primary case I

10 should look at was United States v. Guido. I must confess

11 I looked at West Law thi s morning and I couldn't find it.

12 Does your Honor have a citation? I am not asking

13 you to do my research, but I couldn't find it.

14 THE COURT: If you wait a moment, I will give it

15 to you.

16 MR. WHITE: Thank you very much.

17 THE COURT: I think I may have given you the

18 wrong name. United States against Quinto, did I say

19 that? Q U I N T O? 582 F.2d 224.

20 MR. WHITE: Quinto I found.

21 THE COURT: It is the Second Circuit, 1978. I am

22 sorry I mixed up the name.

23 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock a.m.,
24 Tuesday, February 17th, 1998.)
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4308

1 I-N-D-E-X

2
W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S
3
PAGE LINE
4
D E B R A B E N J A M I N................... 4187 2
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd).................... 4187 7
RECROSS-EXAMINATION....... ....................... 4207 9
6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4214 5
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4221 1
7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4225 11
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION...................... 4234 17
8 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION...................... 4235 8
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION..................... 4237 1
9
S A L V A D O R O C H O A................... 4241 15
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 4242 2
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4256 1
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4276 1
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4284 2
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4286 7
REDIRECT-EXAMINATION............................. 4287 19
13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4297 1
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4300 15
14 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION................... .. 4301 6

15
E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
16

17 Government's Exhibit 63-D received in evidence... 4245 1
Government's Exhibit 63-B received in evidence... 4251 14
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HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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This site is concerned with The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club, and the double scandal of government and judical corruption in one of the Unholy Federal Trials and the concomitant news media blackout regarding this astonishing story.

Sixteen weeks of oft-explosive testimony, yet not a word in any of 1200 news archives. This alone supports the claim that this was a genuinely dirty trial; in fact, one of the dirtiest federal trials of the 20th century.

Show your support for justice, for exoneration of the innocent, and for that all-important government accountability, by urgently contacting your Senator, the White House, and the U.S. Department of Justice.



The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club
How Thomas FX Dunn proved himself the worst attorney in America

Unholy Federal Trials  - The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club

Who's Who Worldwide Registry
and the Stinkiest Trials In America


See for yourself         Strictly Politics        Judge?         Start Page

Victims? Yeah.             Membership of Managing Directors     

Cross Benjamin      Cross Springer       Asking for Guilt     Dirty Jury?

Million-dollar con man testifying to stay out of prison

America's Best & Brightest    Main Page       Con THESE People?!!      

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