Unholy Federal Trials  - Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club

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4828

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1)
4 v. : U.S. Courthouse
5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO
6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC.,
7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE
8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN
9 REFFSIN, :    TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
10 Defendants. :February 19, 1998
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:35 o'clock a.m.

12 BEFORE:

13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury
14 APPEARANCES:
15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER
16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza
17 Brooklyn, New York 11201
By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ.
18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys
19 For the Defendants: NORM AN TRABULUS, ESQ.
20 For Bruce W. Gordon
170 Old Country Road, Suite 600
21 Mineola, New York 11501

22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ.
For Who's Who Worldwide
23 Registry, Inc. and
Sterling Who's, Who, Inc.
24 332 Willis Avenue
Mineola, New York 11501
25
(cont'd)


HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4829

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):

2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski
3 6800 Jericho Turnpike
Syosset, New York 11791
4
ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ.
5 For Oral Frank Osman
3000 Marcus Avenue
6 Lake Success, New York 11042

7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ.
For Laura Weitz
8 319 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
9
MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ.
10 For Annette Haley
400 South Oyster Bay Road
11 Hicksville, New York 11801

12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ.
For Scott Michaelson
13 225 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
14
THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ.
15 For Steve Rubin
150 Nassau Street
16 New York, New York 10038

17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ.
For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue
Hempstead, New York 11551
19

20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR
United States District Court
21 Two Uniondale Avenue
Uniondale, New York 11553
22 (516) 485-6558

23
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4830

1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N

2

3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the

4 absence of the jury.)

5 THE COURT: Apropos, I was requested late

6 yesterday about Friday. I will endeavor not to hold court

7 on Friday after tomorrow. I have already told the jury

8 about tomorrow. I will try to avoid Fridays in the

9 future.

10 MR. LEE: Thank you.

11 MR. SCHOER: Thank you very much.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.

14 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

15 courtroom.)

16 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.

17 Please be seated. I want to compliment you

18 again, I know you were here at 20 after 9:00 and maybe

19 before that. I saw jurors coming in very early in the

20 morning. Thank you very much.

21 I am sorry for delaying the matter, I had several

22 other matters, including a complex civil case I am trying

23 to unravel. I have not succeeded yet, but I am still
24 delaying.
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4831

1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,

2 called as a witness, having been previously

3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

4 follows:

5

6 THE COURT: Mr. Steven Watstein, you are

7 previously sworn and still under oath. You understand

8 that?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10

11 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

12 BY MR. NELSON:

13 Q I believe we left off yesterday at the conclusion of

14 the recording that was made on January 20th, 1993. Do you

15 recall that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And am I correct that clearly this was viewed as

18 Mr. Martin being a job interview; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And would I be correct in stating that you led

21 Mr. Martin on to believe that he might be coming to work

22 for you at some point in time by the time the interview

23 concluded?
24 A Could you rephrase the question, sir?
25 Q At the conclusion of the interview, although it is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4832
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 not on the tape, I assume you told him you would be

2 getting back to him as to whether or not you presented him

3 with a job offer?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Following this interview with Mr. Martin, did you

8 have any further contact?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You did, however, continue to cooperate with the

11 postal inspectors?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Am I correct in January of 1993, in addition to

14 interviewing Mr. Martin, and I believe one other former

15 employee of Who's Who Worldwide, you interviewed and

16 recorded a number of former employees of Oxford Who's Who;

17 is that correct?

18 A That is correct.

19 Q And am I correct in April of 1993 you made numerous

20 telephone calls into Oxford Who's Who, posing as a

21 customer, and recording the employees, the salespeople of

22 Oxford Who's Who?

23 A No, sir, that's not accurate as you phrased it.
24 Q Did you make -- did you make recordings of employees
25 of Oxford Who's Who in April of 1993?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4833
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 A I made a singular call, sir.

2 Q I am not speaking of Who's Who Worldwide.

3 A I understand.

4 Q Just Oxford?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And you made one call?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And did you make any other recordings of employees of

9 Oxford Who's Who other than telephone calls in April of

10 1993?

11 A You are referring to me personally?

12 Q You personally.

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Did you go to work for Oxford Who's Who?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Did you have any meetings with employees that weren't

17 recorded of Oxford Who's Who?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q Did you continue to participate in t he investigation

20 of Oxford Who's Who in April of 1993?

21 A To a limited extent, yes.

22 Q Am I correct that in July of 1993, a few months after

23 the recording that was made to Oxford Who's Who, Oxford
24 Who's Who was shut down and arrests were made of various
25 employees of Oxford Who's Who?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4834
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 A That's my understanding, yes, sir.

2 Q Am I correct that with respect to Who's Who

3 Worldwide, there were no arrests made during the summer,

4 July of 1993?

5 A That's correct, that is my understanding, yes, sir.

6 Q In fact, am I correct as it relates to the defendants

7 sitting here on trial, none of those individuals were

8 arrested until March of 1995, or more than two years after

9 this interview with Frank Martin which had been conducted

10 on Ja nuary 20th, 1993?

11 A That is correct, to the best of my knowledge, yes,

12 sir.
13 Q Now, am I correct that other than making a single
14 recording of a telephone conversation where you called
15 into Who's Who Worldwide in April of 1993 --
16 THE COURT: You are talking about Oxford?
17 MR. NELSON: No. This is Who's Who Worldwide,
18 your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. NELSON: I will withdraw the question and
21 rephrase it.
22 THE COURT: No. My error. I thought you were
23 still talking about Oxford.
24 Q Am I correct that in April of 1993, at the same time
25 that you made a telephone call into Oxford Who's Who, you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4835
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 also made a singular telephone call into Who's Who
2 Worldwide posing as a customer?
3 A That is correct.

4 Q And other than making that one telephone call into
5 Who's Who Worldwide in April of 1993, am I correct that
6 between January of 1993, where you recorded Mr. Martin,
7 and approximately the late spring, early summer of 1994,
8 you did not continue to participate in an ongoing
9 investigation into Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
10 A I believe it was August of '94. That's correct, sir.
11 Q So, for approximately an 18 month period of time you
12 did not participate in any ongoing investigation that was
13 taking place as it related to Who's Who Worldwide; is that
14 correct?
15 A I believe that --
16 Q I am asking if you participated.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Not if an investigation was going on, just if you
19 participated.
20 A I believe there might have been a phone conversation
21 or two that might have dealt with that subject
22 peripherally . If that means did not participate, then I
23 did not participate.
24 Q And those phone conferences would have been you
25 speaking with Inspector Biegelman?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4836
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 A Or Inspector Leonard.
2 Q However during that 18 month period of time or 24
3 month period of time from January of 1993, to
4 approximately August of 1994, am I correct that you did
5 participate in numerous other investigations?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q All right.
8 In fact, am I correct that you were recruited or
9 volunteered, I am not sure how it worked out but in the
10 investigation of a Robert Rosenfeld?
11 A Yes, sir. I was recruited.
12 Q Was that by the postal authorities or other agency?
13 A Postal.
14 Q Who was the inspector handling that investigation?
15 A Inspector Biegelman.
16 Q In fact, you recorded various seminars conducted by
17 principals of that company?
18 A Amongst other things, yes.
19 Q You recorded salespeople of Mr. Rosenfeld?
20 A I don't know if salespeople were recorded, as much as
21 general conversations.
22 Q And that is under the instruction and supervision of
23 Inspector Biegelman?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And after you worked on that investigation, am I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4837
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 correct, that you went back down to Florida in 1993, and
2 posed as a consultant to a company that was under
3 investigation by the Department of Labor; is that correct?
4 A I can't answer that question yes or no the way you
5 phrased it, sir.
6 Q Well, did you go -- did you pose as a consultant for
7 a company under investigation by the Department of Labor
8 in Florida?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay.
11 And that was in 1993?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Okay.
16 And you provided information to the Department of
17 Labor in an investigation that they were conducting in
18 Florida with respect to that company; is that correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q All right.
21 Am I correct that there was nobody criminally
22 charged as a result of that investigation?
23 A That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.
24 Q And while you were in Florida, you also assisted the
25 criminal fraud division of the Internal Revenue Service in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4838
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 a tax investigation of other individuals; is that correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And with respect to that investigation, nobody was
4 criminally charged either; is that correct?
5 A I believe that's true as of the date of Mr. Marvin's
6 letter. It may not be true today.
7 Q Am I correct that while you were in Florida, you also
8 assisted the postal authorities, posing as a consultant
9 for a number of different Florida based companies?
10 A That's accurate.
11 Q And based upon those different investigations, am I
12 correct that there were no arrests in those investigations
13 either; is that right?
14 A Not that I am aware of.
15 Q Now, am I correct that there came a period of time
16 while you were in Florida, that you traveled from Florida
17 to New Jersey, to help the FBI in an investigation they
18 were conduct in -- conducting in New Jersey?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And you actually traveled from Florida at your own
21 expense to record that mee ting?
22 A No, not quite accurate.
23 Q You traveled from Florida at your own expense to
24 record the meeting; is that right?
25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4839
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 Q You made recordings before the meeting, but not
2 actually while you were in attendance at the meetings; is
3 that correct?
4 A I actually made recordings at the meeting, but not at
5 the party.
6 Q Okay.
7 Would I be correct in stating that at least from
8 your position there was no expense that was too great in
9 order to assist the government, taking money out of your
10 own pocket in order to provide cooperation?
11 A I can't answer the question with a yes or no, sir.
12 Q You did pay your own expense to travel from Florida
13 to New Jersey; is that right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q An d that was in order to assist in the investigation
16 that was taking place in New Jersey; is that right?
17 A And I requested no reimbursement; that's correct,
18 sir.
19 Q And it was your hope that based upon that
20 investigation there would be a successful conclusion so
21 that information could be included in the letter submitted
22 to Judge Mishler, by Assistant United States Attorney Seth
23 Marvin; is that correct?
24 A That's not accurate, no.
25 Q You were hoping Mr. Marvin would tell Judge Mishler
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4840
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 about what you did to help the government; is that right?
2 A In terms of assistance, yes, sir.
3 Q And would I be correct in stating that you told us
4 yesterday and also the day before when Mr. Jenks was
5 speaking to you, that this letter that was goin g to be
6 submitted by Mr. Marvin, that letter was worth a million
7 dollars to you; is that right?
8 A That's the phraseology Mr. Jenks used and I had
9 concurred with it, yes.
10 Q Now, in addition to those investigations, am I
11 correct that you also secretly recorded calls and meetings
12 with the target of an advertising fraud investigation in
13 New York in 1994?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q And nobody was arrested as part of that investigation
16 either; is that right?
17 A They were exonerated, yes, sir.
18 Q And you also made numerous recordings posing as a
19 customer to two other completely unrelated Who's Who
20 investigations, one in the south and another one in New
21 York, not Oxford, not Who's Who Worldwide but some third
22 entity; is that correct?
23 A Could you repeat the question, please, sir?
24 Q Okay.
25 Let me break it down for you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4841
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 You assisted the government by making recordings
2 posing as a customer into a number of different Who's Who
3 organizations; is that correct?
4 A No, it is not accurate, sir.
5 Q Did you make telephone calls to a Who's Who
6 organization operating in the southern part of the United
7 States at any point in time?
8 A I don't believe so. It was not a completed call at
9 least.
10 Q Did you attempt to assist in an investigation into
11 the were -- a Who's Who organization in the southern part
12 of the United States?
13 A I am not sure. I believe the attempt was, but we
14 didn't actually make the telephone call.
15 Q It is in Florida?
16 A No.
17 Q What state was it?
18 A It would have been a call from the pos t office in
19 Hicksville in 1993. To the best of my recollection either
20 we did not make contact with the individual, or the call
21 was not made. But there was no recording of it.
22 Q I would like to show you 3500-22-I, which is the
23 letter written by Mr. Marvin to Judge Mishler in your
24 behalf, and I would like to address your attention to
25 paragraph 9 of that letter.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4842
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 Does a review of that paragraph refresh your
2 recollection that you made several recorded calls to an
3 international Who's Who company in the south, which was
4 the subject of a pending investigation?
5 (Handed to the witness.)
6 A I don't believe that's accurate. But my memory could
7 be faulty in that matter.
8 Q I would like to direct your attention to paragraph 8
9 of the letter, and I would like you to read that paragraph
10 and see if that refreshes your recollection.
11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
12 proceedings.)
13 Q Does that paragraph refresh your recollection that
14 you made numerous recorded calls to a bogus Who's Who
15 company on Long Island, which is the subject of a pending
16 investigation, which would have been pending as of July
17 21st, 1995?
18 A I believe that I made the phone calls, but they were
19 not consummated. I am not sure if they were recorded or
20 not.
21 Q So, I would be correct in stating that in addition to
22 Oxford Who's Who and Who's Who Worldwide, you attempted to
23 assist in the investigation of two other completely
24 unrelated Who's Who type organizations, during the course
25 of your cooperation; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4843
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 A That's an accurate statement, yes, sir.
2 Q At least as of the date of that letter, no one was
3 charged in either of those two investigations; is that
4 correct?
5 A That's my understanding, correct, sir.
6 Q In summary, am I correct in stating between 1993 and
7 1995 you literally made cooperation with federal
8 authorities, against virtually everyone and anyone, a
9 full-time job?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q And you were certainly spending a good time of
12 your -- part of your time doing this?
13 A A substantial amount of time would be accurate.
14 Q In fact, you expended your own funds to participate
15 in these investigations; is that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q When the authorities called you to participate, you
18 didn't only jump, you asked how high; is that correct?
19 A I can't phrase it colloquially as you phrased it.
20 But it was an important part of my life, certainly.
21 Q Am I correct in stating that in each of these
22 investigations, it was with the hope that that cooperation
23 information would be included in one of the 13 separated
24 enumerated paragraphs that was set forth in the letter
25 prepared by Seth Marvin to Judge Mishler outlining and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4844
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 detailing your cooperation; is that right?
2 A As you phrased it, absolutely correct, yes, you were.
3 Q And you were hoping the letter would convince Judge
4 Mishler not to give you the 70 months mandatory jail time
5 you were looking at?
6 A That is correct, sir.
7 Q You knew the more information you gave the government
8 about other people, the more the government could write

9 the judge about; is that right?
10 A The proper phrase is assistance, not information.
11 Q The more lives you could ruin, the better chance you
12 had of saving your own neck; is that right?
13 MR. WHITE: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MR. NELSON: I will withdraw the question.
16 Q Now, am I correct that throughout this two-year
17 period of time, from 1993 to 1995, you maintained contact
18 with Inspector Biegelman on a fairly regular basis?
19 A Give me the dates again, sir?
20 Q From '93 to '95?
21 A Not accurate.
22 Q From '93 to August of '94?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q And did you continue to remain in contact with
25 Inspector Biegelman from the time you entered your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4845
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 cooperation agreement until sometime around August of

2 1994, possibly on an infrequent basis, but you maintained
3 contact with him?
4 A Contact for a period of time was largely with
5 Inspector Leonard, as he took over for Inspector
6 Biegelman.
7 Q When Inspector Leonard was no longer in the picture,
8 you reached out to Biegelman?
9 A Actually Mr. Biegelman reached out for me, yes, sir.
10 Q But you maintained contact?
11 A During that period, yes, sir.
12 Q And am I correct that in approximately June or July
13 of 1994, you contacted Inspector Biegelman and advised him
14 a judgment had been entered against Who's Who Worldwide in
15 a lawsuit brought against it by Reed Elsevir?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And you contacted him in the hope that you could now
18 revive the dormant investigation against Who's Who
19 Worldwide; isn't that right, sir?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Well, this contact with Biegelman was some 18 months
22 after your meeting with Frank Martin at the hotel; is that
23 correct?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q And that was some 14 months after the one call you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4846
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 had made into Who's Who Worldwide in April of 1993; is
2 that correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And during that 14 month period of time to your
5 knowledge, there was no active investigation taking place
6 of Who's Who Worldwide by the postal authorities; isn't
7 that correct, sir?
8 A No, sir, it is not.
9 Q Well, you had absolutely no role in the
10 investigation; isn't that right, sir?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q All right.
13 Now, once you made this call to Inspector
14 Biegelman during the summer of 1994, am I correct that
15 very shortly af ter that call was made you started working
16 with him again; isn't that right?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Well, do you recall when you contacted Inspector
19 Biegelman to tell him about the decision in the Reed case?
20 A I believe it was the late spring or early summer of
21 1994.
22 Q It was June of 1994?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Right?
25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4847
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 Q Am I correct that starting in August of 1994, you
2 started making recordings into Who's Who Worldwide at the
3 request of Inspector Biegelman; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir. And that's two months apart, yes, sir.
5 Q As of August of 1994, you had not yet been sentenced
6 for the six felonies you pled guilty to back in March of
7 1993; is that right?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q In fact, you r sentence had been adjourned on a number
10 of occasions; is that right?
11 A Yes, at the request of the government, yes, sir.
12 Q And that was to facilitate your continuing
13 cooperation; is that right?
14 A Yes, uh-huh.
15 Q You wanted to make sure the judge heard about all the
16 investigations you participated in before you were
17 sentenced; is that right?
18 A That was my motivation, yes, sir.
19 Q In fact, you weren't sentenced until July of 1995; is
20 that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Coincidentally, that was four months after the arrest
23 of all the defendants in this case; isn't that right, sir?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q Now, am I correct that shortly after you were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4848
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 advised -- you advised Inspector Biegelman of the Reed

2 decision in Who's Who, he asked you to start making
3 recordings of Who's Who Worldwide employees; is that
4 right?
5 A Two full months later, yes, sir.
6 Q And at that time you started posing as a customer; is
7 that right? You would call in posing as a customer?
8 A A potential customer, yes, sir.
9 Q You made the 61 recordings, correct?
10 A 60.
11 Q At any time during these recordings, did you ever
12 speak with Frank Martin?
13 A Not to my recollection, no.
14 Q And following your cooperation at the completion of
15 this investigation and the remaining investigations, am I
16 correct that there eventually came a day of reckoning when
17 you indeed were sentenced by Judge Mishler for the various
18 crimes which you committed?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And that was the fraudulent operation of your
21 business where you defrauded tens of thousands of
22 customers; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you are defrauding the Internal Revenue Service
25 out of $600,000 in back taxes?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4849
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 A Yes.
2 Q And you are defrauding the insurance company?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And following your investigation, the government in
5 fact filed a letter reflecting your substantial
6 assistance; is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q I would like to show you once again the cooperation
9 agreement -- withdrawn. The letter submitted by Seth
10 Marvin on your behalf to Judge Mishler, dated June 21st,
11 1995.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 Q I would like to direct your attention specifically to
14 paragraph 13.
15 Am I correct that one of the investigations you
16 assisted in involved three of your employees, Greg
17 Philips, Linda Zeitzer, Z E I T E R.
18 A Z E I T Z E R.
19 Q Thank you, and Cathy Shkinder, S H K I N D L E R,
20 they were former employees of yours; is that correct?
21 A S C H -- S H K I N D E R.
22 Q Thank you.
23 Am I correct that those three individuals were
24 former employees of yours?
25 A Of Who's Who in U.S. Executives, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4850
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 Q That's the company you were the president and
2 principal of; is that correct?
3 A Principal of, yes.
4 Q And those individuals had at some point in time
5 elected not to go to trial -- not to plead guilty, and the
6 case was being prepared to go to trial; is that right?
7 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.
8 Q And am I correct that Mr. Marvin in spea king to Judge
9 Mishler about your cooperation, tells the judge as it
10 relates to that investigation, given Watstein's history
11 and background, it is quite unlikely that he would have
12 been a government witness at any trial involving Phillips,
13 Zeitzer and Shkinder; is that correct?
14 A You are reading it accurately, sir.
15 Q And am I correct that in close to the last paragraph
16 of the letter, and I am going to direct your attention to
17 the fourth page of the letter, and the third paragraph
18 down, am I correct that in conclusion, Mr. Marvin in
19 discussing your cooperation to Judge Mishler states, that
20 while we are guardedly optimistic that Watstein will
21 change his pattern of conduct in the future, it is
22 difficult to ignore his long term criminal and fraudulent
23 conduct.
24 Is that what Mr. Marvin wrote to Judge Mishler in
25 your behalf?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4851
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 A No. It was not his conclusion, sir.
2 Q Is that a statement he makes in this letter in the
3 next to the last paragraph?
4 A Yes, it was the next to the last paragraph, that's
5 correct.
6 Q Now, you told us you literally invented the concept
7 of Who's Who business leaders; is that correct?
8 A I am not sure the phraseology is correct, but in the
9 format we did, yes.
10 Q You ripped off literally tens of thousands of
11 customers; is that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q You cheated the government out of half a million
14 dollars?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q You ripped off the insurance company by filing the
17 false claim about the limo?
18 A Yes, I answered the question about 15 minutes ago,
19 yes.
20 Q You were f inally sentenced by Judge Mishler on July
21 28th, 1995; is that right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And now, am I correct that the plea agreement that
24 you had entered back on September 8th, 1993 provided for
25 you to receive a mandatory minimum sentence of no less
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4852
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 than 70 months, or approximately six years in prison; is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And am I correct that the sentence that you received
5 was six months in your home; is that correct?
6 A Amongst other things, yes, sir.
7 Q Basically Judge Mishler told you you had to stay in
8 your room; is that right?
9 A No, sir. It is not accurate.
10 Q You had to stay in your house?
11 A That's part of the aspects of the sentence; yes.
12 Q By the way, your house in Florida, does it have a

13 swimming pool?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q It is air conditioned I assume?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And how much did you pay for the house?
18 A I don't own the house. It is a rented house.
19 Q How many bedrooms in the house?
20 A Four.
21 Q How many square feet in the house?
22 A 2800.
23 Q And how many people were living in that house during
24 your six month period of home confinement?
25 A Four.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4853
Watstein-cross/Nelson

1 Q Who were those four people?
2 A My daughter, my son, my wife and myself.
3 Q Certainly, sir, you give the meaning to the
4 expression, crime pays, don't you?
5 MR. WHITE: Objection.
6 MR. NELSON: Withdrawn.
7 I have no further questions.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY M R. TRABULUS:
12 Q Good morning, Mr. West.
13 My name is Norman Trabulus. I am Mr. Gordon's
14 lawyer.
15 A Good morning.
16 Q Is that what you like to be called, Mr. West as
17 opposed to Watstein?
18 A West is fine.
19 Q We will use that. It comes off my tongue easier, and
20 that's one of the reasons you changed your name when you
21 were 18 from Watstein to West; is that right?
22 A A bit --
23 THE COURT: You will slow down, Mr. Trabulus?
24 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
25 THE COURT: You are starting off with flank
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4854
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 speed. As you know that's when you throw everything into
2 the boiler, including the ship.
3 MR. TRABULUS: I will go in reverse.
4 THE COURT: As they did in Around the World in 80
5 days. Do you recall that.

6 MR. TRABULUS: I saw the movie.
7 THE COURT: On the way back from England, they
8 had nothing left but the boiler, having thrown everything
9 into the fire. So slow down.
10 Q You also changed it because it was less ethnic; is
11 that correct?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q There is nothing wrong -- withdrawn.
14 You changed it with a view to business purposes?
15 A As you said before, it was easier to say.
16 Q There is nothing wrong per se with changing one's
17 name for business purposes, either because it is easier to
18 say, or because you wanted to have a more Anglo-Saxon
19 sounding name, although it wasn't your reason?
20 A I can't comment on your question as far as the second
21 part. As far as the first part I agree with you.
22 Q In terms of the first part, at the time you changed
23 your name, were you thinking of a career that might
24 involv e sales?
25 A A business career.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4855
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q A business career?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Certainly you didn't perceive anything improper in
4 changing your name at that time, did you?
5 A Not at all.
6 Q At that point in time you were not planning a career
7 in which you would cheat anyone or defraud anyone; is that
8 right?
9 A That is correct, sir.
10 Q Now, you became familiar during your career with
11 telemarketing; is that correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And in the telemarketing industry, it is common
14 practice, is it not, for people to adopt easy to say
15 names; is that correct?
16 A That is a practice that is in use. I would not call
17 it a common practice, but it is a practice in use.
18 Q And it is a practice in use by perfec tly legitimate
19 companies; is that correct?
20 A The majority of the large companies do not use that
21 practice, sir. But maybe small companies do.
22 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.
23 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike it out the
24 answer as not responsive. The jury is instructed to
25 disregard it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4856
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Mr. Watstein, is it not correct that perfectly
2 legitimate companies not engaged in fraud may have
3 employees utilizing easy to pronounce names?
4 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
5 Q Now, you are currently a consultant; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And among one of your clients is Core Bank?
8 A Core States Bank.
9 Q Thank you.
10 Do you intend to get more clients aside from the
11 three you listed origina l?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Do you utilize a resume or curriculum vitae for that
14 purpose?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Do you have any kind of document you give clients
17 representing yourself?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q And do I take it -- withdrawn.
20 Is that because you don't want to have to show on
21 a resume what you were doing between 1988 and 1991?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Now, in the sales business, is it correct that it is
24 the usual practice for salespeople to be paid on
25 commission?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4857
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A No, sir.
2 Q Straight salary is what you believe to be the usual
3 practice?
4 A No, sir. Neither.
5 Q Is it a common practice that sales people be paid on
6 commission?
7 A It is one of the common practices, yes.
8 Q And is it also a common practice that salespeople
9 have a quota, a minimum number of sales that they must
10 make?
11 A It is a practice.
12 Q Is it a common practice, sir?
13 A It depends on the company, sir.
14 Q Well, are you familiar with a bunch of different
15 companies?
16 A Somewhat.
17 Q And among the companies -- withdrawn.
18 Is it fair to say that a quota system is a
19 practice that can be used by a company which is perfectly
20 legitimate?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Indeed -- withdrawn.
23 Before coming to New York to testify, did you
24 review any documents?
25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4858
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q What documents did you review, without describing
2 their contents?
3 A The transcripts of the 61 recordings for accuracy.
4 Q And besides the transcripts, did you review any other
5 documents?
6 A Not prior to coming to New York, no, sir.
7 Q Earlier on in your work as a cooperator were you
8 shown any documents either by one of the Assistant U.S.
9 Attorneys, or by Inspector Biegelman or by another postal
10 inspector?
11 A I don't have a recollection of them sharing documents
12 with me. I may need to rethink that. It goes back a
13 while, but I don't have a recollection of that.
14 Q Were you shown any scripts of sales presentations?
15 A Of whom, sir?
16 Q Well, any that were purported -- reported to you to
17 be of Who's Who Worldwide?
18 A I don't believe so.
19 Q Were you shown any documents or transcripts from the
20 litigation of Reed Elsevir and Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Not by the postal inspector, but by my attorney.
22 Q Your attorney showed it to you; is that corr ect?
23 A Yes.
24 Q All right.
25 Were you shown transcripts of testimony by your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4859
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 attorney?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Now, the 61 or 60 tapes you made, those were tapes
4 you made starting in August of 1994 and afterwards; is
5 that correct?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Included in that are the tapes made in January of
8 1993, and the April 1993 tape?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Let's talk about the tapes made in August of 1994 and
11 afterwards, and also the April 1993 tape.
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q These were tapes in which you posed as a potential
14 customer; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q I think you indicated in response to questions by
17 Mr. White that in support of those conversations, you
18 spoke to salespeople here, Annette Haley, Scott
19 Michaelson, Laura Weitz or Winters, and Steve Rubin, also
20 Steve Walden?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And you also spoke to quite a few other people beyond
23 that; is that right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And in any of those conversations which you had and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4860
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 which were tape recorded, did any one of the salespeople
2 promise you a free expense paid trip to New York?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Is that correct in each of those conversations it was
5 explained to you after the initial payment there was a
6 subsequent payment which would be due at about the time
7 the directory would be shipped?
8 A No, it is not accurate as you phrased it.
9 Q Is it accurate in virtually every one of those
10 conversations -- withdrawn.
11 Is it accurate that the term split billing was
12 used in each of those conversations?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Is it accurate you were told there were to be two
15 separate payments in each of those conversations?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Is it accurate that in the vast majority of those
18 conversations you were told that there would be two
19 separate payments?
20 A I think, sir, it was somewhere between less than half
21 and half would be more accurate.
22 Q Less than half and half?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And do you have the transcripts with you?
25 A Not with me, sir. I do not have them.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4861
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Now, is it correct in some instances -- withdrawn.
2 In virtually all of the conversations you raised
3 the subject of Hilton Head; is that correct?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q In some of the instances you raised the subject of
6 Hilton Head?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q In some instances you raised questions about
9 conferences?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q In some instances the salesperson you spoke to told
12 you Hilton Head was cancelled; is that correct?
13 A In some instances.
14 Q In some instances you were told Vietnam was
15 cancelled?
16 A I think only one instance, sir, maybe two.
17 Q Now, you testified yesterday -- withdrawn.
18 You were not told that each tape recording -- in
19 each tape recording Vietnam occurred?
20 A Rephrase that.
21 Q You said in a couple of tapes you were told Vietnam
22 was cancelled. Is it your testimony that in every other
23 tape you were told that the Vietnam conference had
24 actually occurred?
25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4862
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Now, you testified you first learned of the criminal
2 investigation of your company before the search warrant
3 was first executed; is that correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Now, when the first -- the first warrant in your
6 company was executed in June of 1990; is that correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q When did you first learn of the criminal
9 investigation of your company?
10 A In May of 1990.
11 Q Now, you testified in the Spring of 1990, you placed
12 a telephone call to Mr. Gordon's company; is that correct?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And that telephone call was not recorded, was it?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q At that point in time you were not cooperating with
17 the government, were you?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And that telephone call was placed, was it not,
20 before the search warrant was executed on your company?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q That telephone call was placed, was it not before you
23 were aware of any criminal investigation on your company;
24 is that correct?
25 A That is correct, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4863
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Now, your company had a policy with its employees,
2 salespeople, that it would have a written contract with
3 them, did it not?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And that contract contained a provision called a
6 covenant not to compete; is that correct?
7 A Yes, a restrictive covenant.
8 Q And you know sometimes those restrictive covenants
9 are enforceable in court and sometimes it is not?
10 A That is an accurate statement.
11 Q Accurate?
12 A That's an accurate statement.
13 Q An accurate statement?
14 A Yes, you are accurate.
15 Q Now, you say that you called Mr. Gordon's company and
16 the phone was answered, Who's Who Worldwide; is that
17 correct?
18 A It was some Who's Who type name, yes, sir.
19 Q It was answered Who's Who as opposed to corporate
20 offices?
21 A That is correct, sir.
22 Q And do you recall the address that you called him at?
23 A It was a Long Island address. I don't recall it, no,
24 sir.
25 Q I think you say he indicated to you as being
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4864
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 something involved in computers?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Do you recall the name of the computer company he
4 said?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q And I will show you Exhibit Z, a letter from Who's
7 Who in America to Mr. Gordon, it says UVX Computers.
8 Does that refresh your recollection as to the
9 name of the computer company he mentioned he was in?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Now, it is correct that Mr. Canino -- withdrawn.
12 When you called Mr. Gordon, the subject was
13 Mr. Canino; was it not?
14 A Partially.
15 Q Mr. Canino was someone who worked for you?
16 A Currently working for me.
17 Q Currently working for you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you called Mr. Gordon and discussed something
20 about Mr. Canino; is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q It has been spelled with a K, but I believe it is
23 C A N I N O.
24 Now, is it correct that Mr. Canino had in fact
25 been involved in some sort of business involving vitamins?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4865
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And it is your testimony you called the phone number
3 that says Who's Who Wo rldwide?
4 A Who's Who something.
5 Q Excuse me, Who's Who something, whether Worldwide or
6 not, and you hung up because you didn't know what to say
7 at that point; is that right?
8 A My first call, yes.
9 Q When you first called were you expecting to hear
10 something about Who's Who?
11 A Not really.
12 Q When you first called, were you expecting to complain
13 to Mr. Gordon that Mr. Canino was doing something with
14 vitamins?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q When you first called Mr. Gordon, was it your plan to
17 complain that Mr. Canino was doing something outside of
18 your business relating to Who's Who?
19 A You are referring to the first call or second call,
20 sir?
21 Q The very first call when you hung up not knowing what
22 to say?
23 A I am not sure of my intention. To validate if it was
24 a truthful rumor might be more accurate.
25 Q A truthful rumor that Mr. Canino was doing something
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4866
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 with Mr. Gordon relating to Who's Who?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And so, it is your testimony that when you called up,
4 you were surprised to hear Who's Who answered, and hung up
5 right away?
6 A I really thought it was not going to be true, yes,
7 sir.
8 Q And you didn't think -- you are an intelligent
9 fellow, correct?
10 A I think so.
11 Q So do I.
12 You are telling me you didn't plan in advance
13 what you were going to say when you made this call?
14 A I didn't think it was a true rumor, sir. I was
15 surprised it was truthful. It threw me off.
16 Q So, you had no game plan in your head when you called
17 up and you were told the very thing that you were said to

18 expect; is that correct? You had to game plan?
19 A I think I had a game plan. I was surprised of the
20 phone being answered as it was so blatantly.
21 Q When you say blatantly, you mean it was just
22 identified Who's Who; is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And again, it was your testimony that you called
25 again, and again it was answered Who's Who; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4867
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 correct?
2 A That's right.
3 Q You asked to speak to the corporate president; is
4 that correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And you were put through to Mr. Gordon; is that
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q The president of Who's Who?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you immediately asked him, are you the president
12 of Who's Who; is that correct?
13 A I said owner, I believe, not president.
14 Q Are you the owner of Who's Who; is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q He denied it right then and there?
17 A Yes, he denied it for the moment. That's correct,
18 sir.
19 Q At that point in time when you called him you had not
20 yet said to him, I am calling about a problem with
21 Mr. Canino, had you?
22 A I am not sure which part of the conversation preceded
23 the other.
24 Q It is your testimony you asked for Mr. Gordon --
25 A I asked for the owner of the company.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4868
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q For the owner of the company?
2 A Yes.
3 Q The phone was ask answered twice, Who's Who?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Mr. Gordon got on the phone?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You asked if he was the owner of Who' s Who?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And he denied having anything to do with any Who's
12 Who business; is that correct?
13 A In substance, yes.
14 Q Now, it is also your testimony -- at the time of the
15 telephone call, you didn't know you were under any
16 investigation; is that correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q You certainly didn't mention to Mr. Gordon that you
19 were under any investigation; is that correct?
20 A Of course. I didn't know that.
21 Q And it is your testimony -- and the subject of an
22 investigation was not brought up by you, was it?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q And it is your testimony that Mr. Gordon told you
25 that nobody would investigate him?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4869
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A No. He did not use that phrase, sir.
2 Q He did not?
3 A No, that no sa lesman would give him a hard time.
4 Q You are certain he didn't use the word "investigate"
5 at all; is that correct?
6 A I can't be certain, I am almost positive.
7 Q Almost positive?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is that correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And did Mr. Gordon tell you that -- withdrawn.
12 You threatened to sue Mr. Gordon, didn't you?
13 A In the third call, yes.
14 Q And that was the call, the third call when also the
15 phone was answered Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q After the first call, when you say he identified --
18 he denied he was the president of Who's Who Worldwide,
19 evidently he didn't give instructions to his staff not to
20 answer the phone Who's Who; is that correct?
21 A I have no idea what instructions he gave his staff,
22 sir.
23 Q You called the third time and they answered Who's
24 Who; is that correct?
25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4870
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q And he -- you asked to be put through to Mr. Gordon?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You were put through to him again?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Evidently he did not give instructions to be put
6 through to him, or people asking for the president of
7 Who's Who, not to be put through?
8 A I assume so.
9 Q And you spoke to him?
10 A Yes.
11 Q He spoke to you?
12 A Yes.
13 Q In that conversation you threaten to bring a lawsuit;
14 is that correct?
15 A Among other things, yes.
16 Q And that's on the grounds that Mr. Canino would be
17 violating his covenant not to compete? Is that one of the
18 grounds?
19 A One of the grounds, yes.
20 Q And this is where -- and this is the conversation --

21 withdrawn.
22 So, in this conversation it was clear to
23 Mr. Gordon, was it not, that you and he were in an
24 adversarial posture; is that correct?
25 A Potential adversarial posture, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4871
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q You were threatening a lawsuit?
2 A Towards the close of the conversation, yes, that's
3 correct, sir.
4 Q In the course of threatening a lawsuit, you made it
5 clear to him that in the -- if there were to be a lawsuit,
6 anything -- you would use whatever you could against him
7 legitimately? Fair to say?
8 A It was not a phraseology I used, sir.
9 Q Okay.
10 It is fair to say that somebody -- you are a
11 businessman; is that correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Were you ever threatened by a lawsuit in the course
14 of business?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And when you are threatened with a lawsuit, is it
17 fair to say that anything you have done or said could be
18 fair game; is that correct?
19 A Certainly.
20 Q So this is the conversation in which you say that
21 Mr. Gordon told you that if his salespeople gave him a
22 hard time, he would falsely accuse them of the crime of
23 stealing property from them, and have him -- have them
24 arrested; is that correct?
25 A Accuse them was the phrase.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4872
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q He would accuse them of theft; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you were speaking to someone -- of someone in an
4 adversarial posture to him and telling him that he was
5 committing a crime?
6 A That's what he said.
7 Q You say that's what he said?
8 A Yes.
9 Q But he didn't say investigate?
10 A Not to the best of my recollection.
11 Q Now, do you recall the day before yesterday being
12 asked the following questions and giving the following
13 answers, and I will read them all, and we are at the
14 transcript of the trial at page 4401, beginning with line
15 19, and continuing to page 4403, line 3.
16 THE COURT: You are going to read slowly, aren't
17 you, Mr. Trabulus?
18 MR. TRABULUS: I will do my best.
19 Question: Did you then have a subsequent
20 conversation with Mr. Gordon?
21 Answer: Yes, sir.
22 Question: Tell us about that?
23 Answer: Approximately 30 minutes later it dawned
24 on me that I was naive that the phone was answered twice,
25 Who's Who Worldwide. And, in fact, it is possible that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4873
Watstein-cross/Trabulus


1 Mr. Gordon was not being candid on the phone with me. I
2 called back again asking for Mr. Gordon, and the same
3 individual who identified himself as Bruce Gordon came to
4 the phone. In this conversation he now admitted that he
5 had created a competitive Who's Who to my company. He
6 stated in fact that it was a big world out there, that I
7 had no ability to forestall him from using the term "Who's
8 Who."
9 I then indicated it came to my attention he had
10 taken my script and materials I had copyrighted. He
11 indicated it was his option to do and I would have no
12 action against him. In fact, if I were to bring an action
13 against him only the lawyers would get rich.
14 Mr. Gordon then stated in fact, he operated in a
15 different style than I did, and he would be more
16 successful than I was. His style was to closely monitor
17 the salespeople, t o literally walk up and down the
18 telemarketing room. And he was told that my style was to
19 do consulting, stay in the background and hire other
20 salespeople, a sales force.
21 He finally indicated his strategy of dealing with
22 salespeople who were difficult, who gave him a hard time,
23 was to state that they had stolen property from him, and
24 have them arrested, and, therefore, no one would, quote,
25 close quote, investigate Bruce Gordon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4874
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 I indicated I would seek out an attorney to sue
2 him.
3 He indicated it would not be fruitful. That was
4 the last conversation we had.
5 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
6 proceedings.)
7 Q Do you recall being asked those questions and giving
8 those answers?
9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And when you gave those answers there was no
11 hesitation in your mind, was there, that Mr. Gordon
12 identified his company as not some Who's Who company, but
13 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
14 A I think that's accurate, yes, sir.
15 Q Indeed, your recollection of Mr. Gordon saying --
16 withdrawn.
17 The impression of your recollection that you gave
18 to the jury of Mr. Gordon saying, investigate, was such a
19 vivid one, that you actually said quote, unquote, before
20 saying the word "investigate"; is that correct?
21 A I don't have a full recollection, but you read back
22 the transcript, yes, sir.
23 Q Now, is it correct in your business the letters that
24 were sent out to potential Who's Who members said that
25 they had been comminuted by another member?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4875
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A In some cases it was said, and in some cases it was
2 not.
3 Q You testified that Inspector Biegelman gave you a
4 letter signed by Cathy Ross, a Who's Who Worldwide letter
5 to look at; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And that was in connection with the telephone calls
8 you started making in August of 1994; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And was that letter written about that time, the
11 summer of 1994?
12 A I believe it was written a month or two before the
13 date of the first phone call.
14 Q Do you recall if that letter used the word nominate?
15 Yes or no, sir?
16 A I don't have a clear recollection, no.
17 Q And were you shown some letters that did not use the
18 word "nominate"?
19 A I was only shown one letter at that time.
20 Q Is it correct that that letter certainly did n ot say
21 that the recipent had been nominated by another member?
22 A I don't have a recollection of the text of that
23 letter, sir.
24 Q I will show you a copy, my copy of
25 Government's Exhibit 232 in evidence. There are some
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4876
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 others around there.
2 (Handed to the witness.)
3 Q Is that a letter signed by Cathy Ross?
4 A Yes, it is, sir.
5 Q Dated July 7th, 1994?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q There were certain other letters signed by Cathy
8 Ross, the same date, Exhibit 232, Exhibit 231, yes?
9 A This is a different one, sir?
10 Q A different addressee.
11 Take a look at those, 231, 232 and 233.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Any of those say the person receiving the letter was
15 nominated? Did they us e the word "nominate?"
16 A No, that is not the phrase used.
17 Q The phrase is selected; is that correct?
18 A There is an additional phrase in the second
19 paragraph, yes, that did -- that you did not mention.
20 Q I will read the paragraphs so the jury knows what we
21 are talking about.
22 Dear blank. You were recently selected for
23 possible inclusion in the Who's Who registry of business
24 leaders, 1994-95 edition.
25 We are pleased to inform you on July 1st the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4877
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 office of public affairs confirmed your inclusion in the
2 registry pending additional information about your current
3 career position and business expertise. Please refer to
4 the enclosed form.
5 Is that a fair reading of the first two
6 paragraphs marked as Exhibits 231, 232 an d 233?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q As best you can recall was that the text of the Cathy
9 Ross letter about month before the phone calls?
10 A I don't have the exact recollection of the letter.
11 It is same all right in contents, but it might not be
12 exactly the same.
13 MR. JENKS: Norman.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
15 (Mr. Jenks confers with Mr. Trabulus.)
16 Q I am going to now show you another
17 Government's Exhibit, and that's number 229. And that's
18 another Cathy Ross letter.
19 (Handed to the witness.)
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Does that use the word "nominated?"
22 A No, it does not.
23 Q It is dated June 23rd, 1994; is that correct?
24 A There is different phraseology on this letter.
25 Q The phraseology is different, it is a somewhat
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4878
Watstein-cross/Trabul us

1 different form of letter and it doesn't use the word
2 "nominated?"
3 A That's correct.
4 Q It is a little earlier?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q June 23rd?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Here is an April 12th, 1994 letter, also signed by
9 Cathy Ross, and still different phraseology; is that
10 correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And it does not use the word "nominated" and it?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Now, yesterday, did you testify as follows, and
15 directing one's attention.
16 MR. JENKS: It was the day before.
17 MR. TRABULUS: I am sorry, it was the day before
18 yesterday, the 17th, at page 4406, beginning line 13, and
19 continuing to 4407, line 4, sir.
20 Q Were you asked these questions and did you give these
21 answers:
22 Question: Now, let me direct your attention to
23 the summer of 1994. Were you asked to do anything by
24 postal inspectors at that time?
25 Answer: Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4879
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Question: What were you asked to do then?
2 Answer: Inspector Biegelman, I believe it is, do
3 you have the spelling of that, sir? Asked me to make some
4 phone calls to Who's Who Worldwide, again indicating I was
5 an applicant to Who's Who Worldwide, and to determine the
6 nature of the sales presentation.
7 Inspector Biegelman supplied me with a letter of
8 solicitation from a person alleging to be Cathy Ross,
9 R O S S, indicating that the party receiving that letter
10 had in fact been nominated, and I was to indicate that I
11 had received that letter, and had sent in my ballot or
12 application, and not received a call back as of yet.
13 Do you recall being asked those questions and

14 giving those answers?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Now, I think you were asked by both Mr. Jenks and
17 Mr. Nelson whether or not in making the telephone calls
18 you were seeking to find incriminating evidence; is that
19 correct, or inculpatory evidence?
20 A The word exculpatory --
21 Q Inculpatory, I meant to say. If I spoke, my
22 apologies.
23 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
24 Q You said no, it was not your objective?
25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4880
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q You were not asked what your objective was, were you?
2 A No.
3 Q But is it your position, since you were not looking
4 for incriminatory evidence, that you were simply looking
5 for evidence either way, whether it helped or hurt the
6 subject of the investigation? Is that your position? Yes
7 or no?
8 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
9 Q Is it your testimony that in making these telephone
10 calls, you in questioning the person on the other side, or
11 in speaking to them, sought equally to elicit things that
12 might be helpful to Who's Who Worldwide, the subject of
13 the investigation, just as much as you were looking for
14 things that might be hurtful?
15 A I can't answer that question yes or no, sir.
16 Q Did there come any point in time where things were
17 said on these tape recordings by the other side, which
18 might have tended to show lack of criminal intent in your
19 judgment?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And did you pursue those things and seek to elicit
22 more details about them?
23 A In some cases, yes, sir.
24 (Mr. Trabulus confers with Mr. White.)
25 Q Now, I think at one point yesterday you asked if you


HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4881
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 could see a transcript of a phone call you had made on
2 January 20th, 1993; do you recall that? And you were not
3 allowed to see it at that point in time?
4 A Actually it was in reference to a different call,
5 but, yes.
6 Q So we will not ask about that one.
7 Certainly you heard yesterday a tape recording of
8 a conversation you had with Frank Martin on January 20th,
9 1993?
10 A We had a marshal recording.
11 Q The tape ran out at the end; is that right?
12 A I mean we only heard parts of the tape.
13 Q You heard portions of it?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you were questioned about portions of it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And on that same date, January 20th, 1993, did you
18 have another conversation with another employee or
19 ex-employ of Who's Who Wo rldwide?
20 A Yes, I believe so, yes.
21 Q A woman by the name of Regina?
22 A I believe so.
23 Q And was that a transcript you reviewed before coming
24 here?
25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4882
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q You were not shown that transcript?
2 A I did not review it, nor was I shown a copy of that
3 transcript.
4 Q Were you ever shown a copy of that transcript?
5 A Not to the best of my recollection.
6 Q Was that transcript one of the 61 you spoke about?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q So, there were more tape recordings you made beside
9 the 61 that you testified to?
10 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.
11 Q Well, you testified that there were 61 tape
12 recordings you made; is that right?
13 A Of current Who's Who Worldwide salespeople.
14 Q Were there more tape recordings that you made in
15 relation to Who's Who Worldwide besides the 61?
16 A They are tape recordings made at the Garden City
17 Hotel on two separate occasions. And there were multiple
18 interviews in those two tape recordings, so it depends on
19 how you defined your term, sir.
20 Q Aside from those and the 61, were there any others
21 made by you?
22 A Of Who's Who Worldwide?
23 Q Yes.
24 A Not to the best of my recollection.
25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4883
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Now, this woman, Regina, do you recall if you
2 spoke to her after or before your interview with
3 Mr. Martin?
4 A I don't have a clear recollection of that
5 conversation, sir.
6 Q Was she someone who had been referred to you by
7 Mr. Martin?
8 A I don't h ave a clear recollection of that, sir. This
9 goes back several years ago.
10 Q When you spoke to Mr. Martin in the tape recorded
11 conversation, was that the first time you ever spoke to
12 Mr. Martin?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You had not spoken to him on the telephone before
15 that?
16 A That is correct, sir.
17 Q And you had spoken to his wife before that, is that
18 how you set up -- excuse me, he had spoken to your wife
19 before that and that's how the interview was set up?
20 A That's correct, sir.
21 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would offer
22 Defendant's Exhibit GA, a tape recording of the
23 conversation with Regina.
24 THE COURT: George Abel, GA?
25 MR. TRABULUS: GA, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4884
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 I have Exhibit GAA, which is a transcript, a

2 portion of the transcript of that tape recording, which I
3 will offer to the jury as an aid. This transcript was
4 actually supplied to me by the government.
5 THE COURT: Any objection?
6 MR. WHITE: Judge, may I have a moment to
7 actually review this transcript?
8 THE COURT: Surely.
9 What is the date of that recording?
10 MR. TRABULUS: January 20th, 1993.
11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it is going to take me a
12 couple of minutes to review it? Do you want to take the
13 break early, or I will read it as quickly as possible.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 We will take a ten-minute recess. Do not discuss
16 the case, and please recess yourselves.
17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
18 courtroom.)
19
20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
21
22
23
24
25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM O FFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4885
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 (The following takes place in the absence of the
2 jury.)
3 THE COURT: Did someone want to see me?
4 MR. WHITE: Yes, with respect to the tape, I have
5 no objection to the tape being received in evidence. But
6 only that instead of two pages being taken out of context,
7 I ask that the full transcript go to the jury. The full
8 tape is coming in, the full transcript should go in as
9 well.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I was only going to play what is
11 reflected on this transcript. If Mr. White wishes to play
12 and afford the entire transcript, he can do that.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. NELSON: Objection to that. There are
15 portions of the tape referring to my client. He is not an
16 employee of the company at this time. He is not working
17 for the company at that point in time. So it wou ld not be
18 admissions by him. It is not a co-conspirator statement
19 made at that time. So it is not the basis of somebody
20 else's statement.
21 I have no objection to this portion coming in.
22 But to the government seeking certain portions, I do have
23 objections to.
24 THE COURT: You say your client is on this tape?
25 MR. NELSON: There are discussions about my
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4886
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 client. This is another former employee of Who's Who
2 Worldwide who is interviewed on the same date that my
3 client was interviewed, January 20th, 1993. Neither of
4 them were employees of Who's Who Worldwide at the time.
5 My client doesn't speak on that tape, but there are
6 discussions on it about my client by this other person.
7 THE COURT: Is that what is in this transcript?
8 MR. TRABULUS: Mr. Nelson is not objecting to the
9 portion I am wishing to introduce. There are references
10 to his client, but just simply to indicate that he
11 introduced Regina, the person being interviewed to
12 Mr. West, and also Mr. West paraphrased something on the
13 tape which was played yesterday spoken by Mr. Martin. It
14 is a reasonably accurate paraphrase.
15 So, I gather Mr. Nelson is not objecting to
16 that. I have not focussed on the rest of the transcript.
17 THE COURT: Is this a transcript of one telephone
18 conversation?
19 MR. TRABULUS: No. It is an in-person meeting.
20 I am offering an excerpt of that conversation.
21 THE COURT: This is an in-person meeting?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: The in-person meeting was with all
24 these people?
25 MR. TRABULUS: No, your Honor, these were the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4887
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 different names Mr. West used in his various
2 conversations.
3 The cover sheet is a government prepared form.
4 And it lists the name of the confidential informant --
5 actually not his real name, just his various aliases and
6 it says Regina, L N U, for last name unknown. So there
7 are two participants in the conversation.
8 THE COURT: It is Regina and Mr. Watstein?
9 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
10 THE COURT: This is an in-person conversation?
11 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
12 THE COURT: The transcript, which is
13 Defendant's Exhibit GAA, you say, and that would not be
14 very wise. I would say GA-1?
15 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
16 THE COURT: GA is the tape and GA-1 would be the
17 transcript.
18 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
19 THE COURT: The government wan ts to offer the
20 rest of the tape recording, not transcripted.
21 MR. TRABULUS: It is, but I have not made a copy
22 of the transcript.
23 THE COURT: What part of the transcript are you
24 objecting to, Mr. Nelson? Can I see it?
25 MR. NELSON: I have not reviewed the remainder of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4888
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 the transcript, but there are discussions concerning my
2 client.
3 THE COURT: If the discussions say your client
4 received the congressional meddle of honor with two oak
5 leaf clusters, you would not object to that, would you?
6 MR. NELSON: Of course not.
7 THE COURT: What part of the transcript is
8 objectionable.
9 MR. NELSON: I reserve my objection until after
10 the lunch recess, your Honor, for the remainder coming
11 in. And I will review it during the lunch recess.
12 MR. WHITE: To be clear the part that
13 Mr. Trabulus is offering contains a reference to
14 Mr. Martin.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus said that already, and
16 he said it is an accurate reference, and Mr. Nelson has no
17 objection to that.
18 MR. NELSON: Yes.
19 THE COURT: We will reserve on the rest of the
20 transcript later on.
21 Bring in the jury.
22 MR. WHITE: I assume Mr. Trabulus wants to
23 question Mr. Watstein about the tape. There may be parts
24 earlier in the tape providing context to what Mr. Trabulus
25 wishes to offer.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4889
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 THE COURT: Then we will lose that context. So
2 what?
3 MR. WHITE: I am sorry, your Honor?
4 THE COURT: So what?
5 MR. WHITE: What if he asks about something and
6 M r. Watstein needs to explain.
7 THE COURT: We will see. Why jump ahead of the
8 game.
9 MR. WHITE: Okay.
10 THE COURT: I was told when I appeared before the
11 United States Senate Judiciary Committee not to decide
12 things that are not before me. Did you understand that
13 principle?
14 MR. WHITE: I do, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
16 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
17 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
18 courtroom.)
19 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
20 jury.
21 We took more than ten minutes because we had to
22 discuss certain things. You know that we use some of this
23 time to discuss evidentiary matters which are not for your
24 consideration.
25 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4890
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Government's Exhibit GA, George Abel, and GA-1,
2 George Abel 1, to the extent we have discussed it, is in
3 evidence; is that correct?
4 (Defendant's Exhibit GA received in evidence.)
5 (Defendant's Exhibit GA-1 received in evidence.)
6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, yes. I have actually
7 listed the transcript as a defense exhibit, I put the
8 sticker on it. I guess it can be a government's.
9 THE COURT: Did I say government's?
10 Defendant's Exhibit GA and
11 Defendant's Exhibit GA-1, are in evidence.
12 MR. TRABULUS: I am handing GA-1 to the jury, I
13 chose the terminology, unfortunately as GAA, but it is
14 GA-1.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
17 to the jury.)
18 THE COURT: It is not an unwise choice,
19 Mr. Trabulus. I prefer my way.
20 Did you ever hear that song by Frank Sinatra, My

21 Way?
22 MR. TRABULUS: I believe so.
23 THE COURT: Very appropriate for judges, I
24 thought.
25 MR. TRABULUS: I would agree, your Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4891
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1
2 CROSS EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. TRABULUS:
4 Q Mr. West, are you reading this?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And Regina came in for a job?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And the same ad placed by people to work?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you were posing to hire someone working for a
11 Who's Who business; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Okay, we will play the tape.
14 THE COURT: This is January 20th, 1993?
15 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
16 (Tape is played.)
17 Q Mr. West, that's an extract from your conversation
18 with Regina; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you recall that; is that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, in that conversation you didn't ask Regina in so
23 many words what percentage of people were nominated by
24 other members as opposed to coming from a mailing lead,
25 did you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4892
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A I --
2 Q Yes or no, sir.
3 A I am sorry, I need to have my memory refreshed of the
4 whole conversation, if that is possible, at least the
5 transcript of it.
6 Q Now, do you think you did earlier on --
7 A I don't want to hazard a guess about a conversation.
8 Q Excuse me. Do you recall Regina refusing to answer
9 any questions of yours?
10 A I don't have any recollection of that one way or
11 another, sir.
12 Q Is this something you had to goad her and pressure
13 her to answer the que stion?
14 A Sir, I don't mean to be disrespectful, you have given
15 me part of a conversation that goes back many years ago --
16 Q You will have an opportunity to review the entire
17 conversation, but right now answer my question.
18 Do you recall if Regina was refusing to give
19 information?
20 A I don't have a recollection, sir.
21 Q Do you recall that the portion that I just played to
22 you said one last question?
23 A That's what it says, yes.
24 Q And do you recall, you didn't say I am going to ask
25 you about something we talked about before? Do you recall
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4893
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 you didn't say that?
2 A In what you just played, yes, that's correct.
3 Q And do you recall without going into it in great
4 detail -- were you present in the courtroom when there wa s
5 a conversation out of the presence of the jury before the
6 Judge?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And there was some conversation whether the entire
9 conversation would be played, and whether the entire
10 transcript would be made available to the jury; is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you listened to that; is that correct?
14 A Not totally, sir.
15 Q You heard Mr. White say that it was his position that
16 he wanted the entire -- that there might be a need for you
17 to answer something in context, and in that event you
18 should have the entire thing --
19 A I heard Mr. White say that.
20 Q You took up on that, right?
21 A I listened to what Mr. White said, yes.
22 Q Immediately after I asked you that question, you said
23 you wanted to hear the entire thing played; is that right?
24 A That's my response, sir, yes.
25 MR. T RABULUS: At this point, I would suggest
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4894
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 that what we do is have Mr. West alone listen to the
2 entire tape.
3 THE COURT: Right now?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, he said he needs to refresh
5 his recollection.
6 THE COURT: No. We will complete everything else
7 except this, and during the lunch hour he will do that.
8 How much more of this transcript is there? How
9 many pages? If it is only a few pages, okay.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I think about nine or ten.
11 MR. WHITE: The total is 11 pages.
12 THE COURT: The total is 11, and we have looked
13 at two, right?
14 MR. WHITE: Right.
15 MR. TRABULUS: Right.
16 THE COURT: So there are nine pages left?
17 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: We will let him take a look at it.
19 It is not a lo t.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Do you want to show it to him?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Do you have a copy?
23 THE COURT: Do you want to staple that together?
24 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Do you want to peruse that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4895
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 transcript, Mr. Watstein, and see if there is anything in
2 there relating to the questions that you were just asked.
3 A Sure.
4 (Transcript handed to the witness.)
5 THE COURT: You better mark the transcript,
6 Mr. Trabulus.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
8 THE COURT: Perhaps you ought to mark it GA-2.
9 MR. TRABULUS: Okay.
10 THE COURT: And that's the full transcript. And
11 that is for identification.
12 (Defendant's Exhibit GA-2 marked for ID.)
13 THE COURT: Have you read the transcript?

14 THE WITNESS: Just one more second, sir. I am on
15 the last page.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, Mr. West, is it correct that the first point at
21 which the subject of nomination comes up is in the point
22 which was played to you on the tape?
23 A I think that's correct, sir.
24 Q And you were the one who brought the subject up; is
25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4896
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you did not ask Regina what percentage of people
3 were nominated by other members, and what percentage came
4 from mailing leads, did you?
5 A I did not ask that question, yes, sir.
6 Q Now, what you did was -- withdrawn.
7 You had discussed with her, and you let her know
8 that Frank had sent her in?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Is that correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And then Frank in a sense was responsible for her
13 getting this job interview; is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q And then you told her something that Frank says; is
16 that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you certainly would not, in doing that, expect
19 her then to say something contradictory to what Frank
20 said; is that correct?
21 A Not necessarily, I don't necessarily agree with that
22 statement.
23 Q Is it fair that you expected her to agree as to what
24 Frank said concerning the percentage when you asked that
25 question?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4897
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A I had the expectancy, sir, but I wasn't certain.
2 Q All right.
3 Now, s he then explained to you that in all
4 fairness to Bruce and his company, he did make it clear at
5 one point that he didn't want people actually thinking
6 that they were nominated?
7 A What page are you not, sir?
8 Q Page 7, at the top.
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And you took that to mean, I assume that he made it
11 clear that he didn't want people to actually think that
12 they had been nominated by another member; is that
13 correct?
14 A No, I didn't take it to be that, sir.
15 Q And did you follow up on that by asking her in what
16 respects he didn't want people thinking that they were
17 nominated?
18 A I don't see a follow up question there.
19 Q Did you ask whether or not the sales presentation
20 that was prepared by Mr. Gordon and submitted to the
21 salespeople to use, contained within it a statement that
22 the person being spoken to had been nominated by another
23 member? Did you ask that?
24 A I don't see that explicit question here, no.
25 Q Did you ask whether -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4898
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 You are familiar with the term "objection sheet"?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Are you not?
4 A Yes.
5 Q An objection sheet is not part of the main sales
6 presentation?
7 A It is called a catalogue of objections, yes.
8 Q And it is something that is customarily used in phone
9 sales to deal with questions that may or may not arise
10 during the course of a sales presentation; is that
11 correct?
12 A Actually barriers as opposed to questions.
13 Q Things that may be stated by a potential customer
14 which might seem to be some kind of impediment to the sale
15 being consummated; is that correct?

16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And did you ask this woman, Regina, whether or not
18 any of the objection sheets that were prepared and used in
19 the Who's Who Worldwide, for use in response to a
20 question, who nominated me or something like that, did you
21 ask her whether any of those said that the person -- that
22 the salesperson was to say that another member had
23 nominated the person being spoken to?
24 A I did not ask that question, sir.
25 Q Did you is -- did you ask this woman whether or not
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4899
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 any members of the sales staff had been falsely accused of
2 stealing?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did you ask her whether any of them had been
5 threatened with being falsely accused of stealing?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q At the time of this conversation you were aware, w ere
8 you not, that there had been some turn over; is that
9 correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And now that you have reviewed this, you know that
12 you had spoken to Mr. Martin before you spoke to Regina;
13 is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q And Mr. Martin himself told you there had been some
16 turn over and people left; is that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And you didn't -- withdrawn.
19 At the point in which you spoke to Regina, did
20 you have pressure in your mind your conversation with
21 Mr. Gordon in which you claimed that he told you that he
22 was going to falsely accuse salespeople of stealing from
23 him if they gave him a hard time? Did you have that fresh
24 in your mind by that time?
25 A By fresh in my mind, how do you define that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4900
Watstein- cross/Trabulus

1 Q I will withdraw the question.
2 A Okay.
3 Q You didn't ask this woman whether or not that was
4 what was happening in the business, that people were being
5 falsely accused of stealing when they left?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Now, when this Regina said that Bruce made it clear
8 at one point, that he didn't want people actually thinking
9 that they were nominated, what you did is say that that
10 was later on, correct?
11 A Yes, that is correct.
12 Q And you wanted to create the impression that there
13 was some period of time when Bruce did, or the company did
14 want to make it look that people were being nominated by
15 other members?
16 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
17 It is not an accurate question.
18 Q You didn't ask any follow ups concerning that?
19 A Would you rephrase that?
20 Q You didn't ask any follow up questions concerning
21 that, did you?
22 A I did ask a follow up question as you see here.
23 That's the question you just asked me about.
24 Q That was not a question. That was a statement by
25 you; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4901
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A It was a rhetorical statement, yes.
2 Q And then you dropped the entire subject and moved on
3 to your hiring time table; is that correct?
4 A When she answered my question, yes, sir.
5 Q Now, it is your testimony that in the course of
6 conducting these interviews, you were not looking
7 specifically for things that were incriminatory; is that
8 correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And that you were attempting to be fair to the
11 company, to Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
12 A I think that's an accu rate statement, yes.
13 Q That's what you believe you were attempting to be; is
14 that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Now, going back to this conversation you had with
17 Mr. Gordon in which you threatened to sue him, in
18 connection with that, you didn't call the postal
19 inspectors to make a complaint about Mr. Gordon and his
20 business, did you?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Now that would have been -- at that point in time did
23 you perceive that you were in your own business doing
24 something which was unlawful?
25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4902
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q You did not?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay.
4 You thought at that point in time what you were
5 doing lawful and you didn't commit a crime?
6 A I didn't give the term "lawful" any thought at that
7 period of time.
8 Q Is it fair to say that you felt at that point in time
9 the conduct of your business was not violating any law?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you were not afraid that if you contacted the
12 postal inspectors, that the postal inspectors -- you would
13 be drawing attention to your business and it might be
14 subject to a criminal prosecution?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q And the fact that you didn't call the postal
17 inspectors on Mr. Gordon, that doesn't mean that you
18 yourself was afraid of being looked at by the postal
19 inspectors?
20 A Would you rephrase? I don't understand your
21 question.
22 Q I will withdraw it.
23 A Thank you.
24 Q Let's talk about how you first got into Who's Who.
25 Before you opened up your business, Who's Who in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4903
Watstein-cro ss/Trabulus

1 American Business Leaders was it?
2 A U.S. Executives.
3 Q I am sorry, I misspoke.
4 Before you opened up Who's Who in American
5 executives, were you ever falsely involved in American
6 Who's Who activity?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What Who's Who activity was that?
9 A In the winter or late -- the end of the year 1997.
10 Q '87?
11 A Yes, '87. I did a test mailing to see if a concept
12 would be palatable. And that mailing pre-dates the actual
13 incorporation of the company.
14 Q All right, let's go back to that test mailing.
15 Before that test mailing had you yourself ever
16 worked in any Who's Who business?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Had you yourself ever had any involvement in a Who's
19 Who business, even if you weren't an employee?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Had you yourself ever been nominated, or recommended
22 or included or offered in inclusion in any Who's Who?
23 A It's possible, but I don't have any clear
24 recollection as to that.
25 Q How did the idea -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4904
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Did somebody suggest to you you get into the
2 Who's Who business?
3 A Not to the best of my recollection.
4 Q Was that something you thought of yourself?
5 A I believe so, yes.
6 Q And you already testified you are a well educated
7 guy, you went to the Wharton School of Finance; is that
8 correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that's a well and prestigious school; is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Did you do research before you did your test mailing
14 of the Who's Who industry?
15 A I don't know if research is a correct term, but I did
16 some kind of preparation.

17 Q What kind of preparation did you do?
18 A My best recollection going back eleven years ago, I
19 determined the name was in the public domain and no one
20 company owned the name Who's Who.
21 Q You researched that it was lawful -- withdrawn --
22 that anybody could use the term "Who's Who"; is that
23 correct?
24 A That's my understanding at that time.
25 Q Did you do anything else by way of researching it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4905
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A Not that I have a clear recollection.
2 Q Did you try to find out anything about the way other
3 companies that published Who's Whos operated?
4 A I may have. I don't have a clear recollection, sir.
5 Q Were you familiar at that point in time with Who's
6 Who in America?
7 A Vaguely, yes.
8 Q Had you ever seen a Who's Who in Ame rica?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Did you ever know anybody included in Who's Who in
11 America?
12 A Probably. I don't have any clear recollection of
13 that.
14 Q Did you know anything about the process by which
15 Who's Who in America got the names of people who were
16 listed in Who's Who?
17 A You are referring to 1987?
18 Q Back then. We are going to get to later, later. But
19 I want to get back to when you first started out.
20 A Sure. Not to my best recollection, no.
21 Q Now, were you aware at the time there were many
22 different Who's Whos?
23 A No.
24 Q Were you aware that the company who published Who's
25 Who in America had other Who's Who publications?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4906
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A Yes.
2 Q Were you aware if there were not many Who's Who,

3 there was at least more than one Who's Who; is that
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Were you aware that there were other Who's Whos
7 published, besides those published by the company who
8 printed Who's Who in America?
9 A Not to the best of my knowledge in 1987, but soon
10 thereafter.
11 Q Now, when you did the test marketing, that was a
12 mailing; was it not?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Where did you get the names and addresses of the
15 people you mailed to?
16 A I don't have a clear recollection, sir.
17 Q Was it a mailing list?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And had you previously been involved in businesses in
20 which there were mailing lists used by you?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Is it fair to say in your work history you had had a
23 considerable experience of direct mail marketing?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Now, the test marketing you did in 1987, did that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4907
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 consist of sending a bunch of solicitation letters to
2 people inviting them to be included in a Who's Who?
3 A In substance, yes.
4 Q And do you recall what Who's Who that was?
5 A I think we called it American Executives.
6 Q And was that test marketing successful in your
7 judgment?
8 A Sufficiently successful to continue the concept, yes,
9 sir.
10 Q Now, when you continued the concept, you continued it
11 with several different Who's Whos?
12 A Eventually.
13 Q And it was your plan at that point in time to utilize
14 mailing lists as a source of people; is that correct?
15 A At what point in time are you at, sir?
16 Q I will try to progress chronologically. So if there
17 is an ambiguity in my question point it out to me, but
18 that's basically where I am going.
19 Right after your test marketing was successful,
20 your test mailing was successful, did you make a plan to
21 market Who's Whos?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q At that point was it just one Who's Who you were
24 going to market or a bunch?
25 A One, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4908
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q That's the one in U.S. Executives?
2 A American Executives.
3 Q Did you do that, sir?
4 A Yes.
5 Q American Executives?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And did you rent space for that purpose?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did you hire people for that purpose?
10 A Eventually.
11 Q At that point in time were you planning to have
12 in-person telephone -- withdrawn.
13 Was it your plan at that point in time to have
14 telephone interv iews following the solicitation letter?
15 A What point in time are you at, sir?
16 Q The very beginning when you first started out, after
17 the test mailing?
18 A No.
19 Q And at that point everything was to be done by mail?
20 A That was my original thinking, yes.
21 Q And at a certain point in time you decided to have an
22 interview process as well; is that correct?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q And is that the point in time you hired people?
25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4909
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q And at that point in time did you rent space for
2 them?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did the people work out of their homes at that point
5 in time?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Where did they work?
8 A At 98 Cutter Mill Road.
9 Q You already had the space?
10 A Yes, si r.
11 Q That's a commercial building?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And you had the space in connection with another
14 business you were operating?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q How many people did you hire initially?
17 A I think there were four or five initially.
18 Q And throughout, it was your plan to utilize mailing
19 lists to get names; is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And you did so?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Now, the mailing lists you got, were they somewhat
24 selective?
25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4910
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Can you explain the respects in which they were
2 selective?
3 A A person who was attempting to do a direct mail
4 campaign would normally utilize mailing lists that at
5 least seem to be consistent with the audience you are

6 trying to reach. That, however, is not always the case.
7 As an example, we used Forbes magazines. And it
8 is possible that a student could subscribe to Forbes
9 magazine. Therefore we tested many different lists at
10 various levels of success and various levels of accuracy.
11 We even found at one time there was a name of a
12 dog who subscribed to one of the magazines and was in our
13 mailings at Who's Who.
14 Q Had you ever heard that a dog managed to get into
15 Who's Who in America? Did you learn that along the way?
16 A Got into one of the Who's Whos.
17 Q One of the Marquis Who's Who?
18 A I don't know which one he got into.
19 Q You can continue your answers in terms of the
20 selectivity.
21 A Many lists were utilized, including Dun & Bradstreet,
22 many legal directories, accounting directories, there is a
23 data base called Chilton, C H I L T O N, a magazine
24 publisher, a company called Cahners, C A H N E R S, we
25 utilized the American Association of female executives,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4911
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 and we learned from that list that many of the people in
2 that list in fact were not as represented, junior in
3 position. Many lists were utilized. We attempted to do
4 key coding, which is to determine the rate of response
5 from each mailing list.
6 Q Did you attempt to make your lists as selective as
7 possible within the parameters that you attempted to
8 target?
9 A Yes, for selfish and commercial reasons, yes, sir.
10 Q You didn't want to be sending -- you didn't want to
11 be wasting mail by sending it to people who would not be
12 interested or suitable for what you were doing; is that
13 correct?
14 A That is correct, sir.
15 Q At some point you branched beyond Who's Who in
16 American Executives, and you had other Who's Whos focussed
17 toward specific groups; is that correct?
18 A That is correct, sir.
19 Q One was Who's Who in law Enforcement; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And another was Who's Who in Government?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And Who's Who in practicing attorneys?
25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4912
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q I think you called it Steven's Who's Who in
2 Practicing Attorneys?
3 A We did it at a time to differentiate from other Who's
4 Whos.
5 Q In connection with your plan to sell the Who's Who
6 for these people, did you ever have a plan for other kind
7 of commercial ventures related to Who's Who?
8 A Would you define that.
9 Q A sales catalogue.
10 A What time span?
11 Q I am trying to go chronologically. So I am trying to
12 go to the time you are branching out. You are now having
13 a Who's Who in Law Enforcement, a Who's Who in Practicing
14 Attorneys, Who's Who in Government?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Did all those three come at the same time?
17 A I don't have a recollection. A similar time period.
18 Q Around that time period were you planning to have
19 related ventures to the Who's Who?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And those would be the sale of merchandise?
22 A That was one of them, yes.
23 Q What were some of the others?
24 A Some of the others were providing a broad array of
25 services to the members, including the securing of venture
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4913
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 capital, the securing of job opportunities, teaching them
2 how to be able to publish their own book, showing them how
3 to be able to earn money by doing speaking engagements,
4 and being able to earn both compensation and perform a
5 worth while service at the same time.
6 Q Is it fair to say at that point in time you sincerely
7 intended to fulfill those objectives?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And at that point in time you did not intend to
10 defraud anyone; is that correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Indeed, one of the Who's Who you targeted was Who's
13 Who in Law Enforcement?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And if you were setting out to what you perceived in
16 your mind to be a scheme to defraud, you would not
17 certainly select among all people a group of law
18 enforcement people; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And also at that point in time you also had Who's Who
21 in Practi cing Attorneys?
22 A Somewhere around that time period, sir.
23 Q Certainly you are aware that attorneys may be, not
24 necessarily, but may be not the most gullible people in
25 the world?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4914
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A It wouldn't be a proper adjective.
2 Q Attorneys are certainly a group of people who can
3 assert their rights and complain and would do that; is
4 that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You would not have targeted them if at that point in
7 time you were conceiving in your mind that you were going
8 to operate a scheme to defraud; is that correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And is it fair to say that you started out with good
11 objectives?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Now, this was at a time when you were sending out
14 letters that said you have been nominated; is tha t
15 correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And indeed the letter said you were nominated by
18 another member, sir?
19 A Not at that time.
20 Q It said you were nominated?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And in the telephone conversations that your
23 salespeople had with these people, they would be telling
24 them that they would be nominated by another member; is
25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4915
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A That is correct.
2 Q And you were aware of that; is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And you did not -- in fact, all of the leads that you
5 got, all of them, were coming from mailing lists; is that
6 correct?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q You did try a nomination by other members briefly; is
9 that correct?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q And that was not very suc cessful; is that correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And you didn't pursue that or attempt to develop it
14 or enlarge it, did you?
15 A Not aggressively, no.
16 Q And at this time when all this is happening, you did
17 not in your mind believe that you were acting with intent
18 to defraud; is that correct?
19 A At what time are you, sir?
20 Q Well, I will go back.
21 I was asking you some questions where you talked
22 about having good intentions, and you were planning to
23 develop related products. You were planning to sell the
24 Who's Who. You were targeting law enforcement people,
25 practicing attorneys.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4916
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 At that point in time, sir, you were utilizing
2 mailing lists; is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir. The time period you mentioned is e arly
4 1990. That's where we are right now.
5 Q And you were not advising the people being targeted
6 by you that they were -- that their names had come from a
7 mailing list; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q That is correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q So --
12 A In general.
13 Q And at that point in time you believe that you were
14 not engaged in a scheme to defraud; is that correct?
15 A In early 1990, that is correct, sir.
16 Q So, utilizing mailing lists, telling people they were
17 nominated, and not disclosing to them that their names
18 came from a mailing list, was something which you believed
19 does not necessarily mean a scheme to defraud; is that
20 correct?
21 A What tense are you using, sir?
22 Q Believed?
23 A In early 1990, that's an accurate statement in my
24 ignorance, yes.
25 Q That was your mental state at the time; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4917
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 correct?
2 A As of early 1990, correct.
3 Q You did not intend at that time to defraud anybody;
4 is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Now, that is shown by the fact that you targeted law
7 enforcement people; is that correct?
8 A I believe so.
9 Q And practicing attorneys?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And the other people you targeted, executives, they
12 are a fairly sophisticated group on the whole as well; is
13 that correct?
14 A In general, yes.
15 Q Now, I think that you mentioned at a certain point in
16 time financial difficulties set in; is that right?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And that is when problems with delivering merchandise
19 and directories came about; is that correct?
20 A T hat's correct.
21 Q Now, your company was sued by Reed Elsevir; was it
22 not?
23 A That's my recollection, yes.
24 Q It is not something that is too hard to remember, is
25 it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4918
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q You were sued by Marquis; is that correct?
3 A It was not Reed Elsevir at that time, yes, sir.
4 Q Okay.
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q And is that when the financial difficulties started
7 in?
8 A I don't think they were correlated, sir.
9 Q And you had financial difficulties beginning --
10 withdrawn.
11 Certainly being sued by Reed Elsevir did not
12 help, did it?
13 A Actually it wasn't a significant issue at that time.
14 Q You had legal fees, did you not?
15 A They were not significant at that time.
16 Q In any event, the financial difficulties you had was
17 not something of your own intent or plan; is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And that is what put you in the position of taking
20 money from people and not delivering; is that correct?
21 A No.
22 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, can we have a time frame as
23 to what time we are talking about now?
24 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
25 Q When did the financial difficulties set in, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4919
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A In mid-to late 1989.
2 Q In 1990 as you indicated you had sincere plans, and
3 you were delivering, and you were not acting with intent
4 to defraud at the time?
5 A Which part of 1990?
6 Q The time in which you said, quite early in 1990, the
7 time that you had the Who's Who of law enforcement, the
8 time you were planning to sell merchandise, teach people
9 how to write books, obtain venture capital for people whom
10 you described as members. At that point in time, sir, you
11 did not have intent to defraud, sir?
12 A In my ignorance, that's true.
13 Q At the time you were not trying to defraud anybody?
14 You didn't believe you were?
15 A In my mind set, correct, at that time and point in
16 space.
17 Q And that's the time -- that's the time at which your
18 intent would be measured if you were to be judged for what
19 you were doing at that time; is that correct?
20 A Intent for that period of time, yes, sir.
21 Q Now, later on you had these financial difficulties,
22 sir; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And the financial difficulties resulted in
25 merchandise not being deliveFF0000; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

4920
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A To some extent.
2 Q It resulted -- your business had a catalogue, did it
3 not?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And is this Defendant's Exhibit AO?
6 (Handed to the witness.)
7 Q Excuse me, I am showing you AO. Is this one of the
8 catalogues that your company distributed?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And this --
11 MR. TRABULUS: I would offer AO in evidence, your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: Any objection?
14 MR. WHITE: I just need to see it, your Honor.
15 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
16 MR. WHITE: No objection.
17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AO, Abel Oboe, in
18 evidence.
19 (Defendant's Exhibit AO received in evidence.)
20 Q Mr. West, there were various items of merchandise in
21 that, that were offered for sale to people?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And they weren't just offered f or sale to people who
24 were in your Who's Whos; is that correct?
25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4921
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q They were offered for sale to people in a broader
2 group; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q If they bought they would then be solicited by your
5 company?
6 A Not necessarily.
7 Q Some of them would be?
8 A Not necessarily.
9 Q Now, after your financial difficulties ensued, then
10 there came problems in delivering the merchandise?
11 A There was not extensive problem with the merchandise.
12 Q Is there not a potential problem where you failed to
13 order from your suppliers and failed to take money?
14 A Not extensively.
15 Q Did it happen?
16 A It happened, yes.
17 Q Were there numerous complaints by people ordering
18 merch andise that were not being delivered?
19 A Numerous is not accurate, sir.
20 Q There were complaints concerning directories that
21 weren't being published?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And is it correct that after the first of several
24 search warrants was executed, you rushed to get certain
25 directories in print, that hadn't been in print before
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4922
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 that?
2 A It is correct, we used every effort we could to get
3 them in print, yes. Rushed would not be a proper phrase.
4 Q Now, there came a point in time when you were
5 arrested and charged; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q You pled guilty to various crimes I will not go over
8 in detail, such as mail fraud, mail fraud involving an
9 insurance company, tax fraud, also filing a false
10 sta tement with the postal authorities; am I correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And besides those crimes do you believe you committed
13 any others in connection with this?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q You didn't commit perjury?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q So, when you were called upon to testify -- were you
18 called upon to testify in the case that Reed had brought?
19 A I don't believe I was a witness. I don't have a
20 recollection as to that.
21 Q Do you recall whether you were called upon to testify
22 as to whether or not you used mailing lists?
23 A I don't have a recollection of that.
24 Q In the course of that did you learn that Reed Elsevir
25 or Marquis used mailing lists?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4923
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A It was my understanding they used mailing lists. Not
2 in the course of that, but in the general concept, yes.
3 Q You came to learn that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And they would also tell people they were nominated,
6 although the name came from a mailing list?
7 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
8 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, is that yes?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection,
11 yes.
12 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
13 Q Did the government, did Mr. Biegelman ever ask you to
14 participate in an undercover investigation of Marquis
15 Who's Who?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Did you ever relate to him that the investigation of
18 Marquis Who's Who also uses mailing lists, and also tells
19 people they were nominated?
20 A My attorney may have related that to him. I don't
21 have a recollection of doing that.
22 Q Did you instruct your attorney to relate it to him?
23 A If he did so, it would be with my i nstructions.
24 Q In any event, do you recall instructing your attorney
25 to do that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4924
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A I don't have a clear recollection, sir.
2 Q And in your efforts to cooperate and render as much
3 assistance as you could, did you suggest to Inspector
4 Biegelman that perhaps you can do an undercover
5 investigation of Marquis Who's Who?
6 A I don't have a recollection of that.
7 Q Is it your recollection that you did not?
8 A I think so, but it is not clear.
9 Q Did you discuss with your attorney before as to
10 whether you should?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did anyone suggest to you that you should not?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did Mr. Biegelman himself ever tell you that he
15 himself met with representatives of Reed Elsevir?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Did anybody ever tell you that Mr. Biegelman met with
18 representatives of Reed Elsevir?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Did anybody ever tell you that it would be pointless
21 to suggest to Inspector Biegelman or any of the postal
22 inspectors to do an undercover investigation of Marquis
23 Who's Who because the postal inspectors simply wouldn't do
24 it?
25 A I believe I had a conversation with my attorney about
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4925
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 the possibility of that and it was a very minor
2 conversation. And his general impression was it would not
3 be a feasible investigation. But it was not an in-depth
4 conversation to the best of my recollection.
5 Q It was your understanding that your attorney had been
6 speaking directly to the postal inspectors; is that
7 correct?
8 A My unders tanding, generally from time to time, yes.
9 Q Did your attorney give you an explanation as to that?
10 A We didn't have a long discussion about that.
11 Q Did you tell your attorney except for the
12 non-delivery, due to your financial difficulties,
13 everything they were complaining about about you could
14 have been said about Marquis Who's Who?
15 A I might have said that. In what period are you
16 speaking about time wise?
17 Q I guess it would be after you began cooperating, sir,
18 and I am not suggesting what period you would have had
19 that conversation. But you --
20 A It would have been much earlier, it would have been
21 in May or June of 1990.
22 Q So that would have been after the search warrant was
23 executed, but before they actually began -- before you
24 were actually criminally charged; is that correct?
25 A No, sir. May was prior to the search warrant.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4926
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Okay.
2 So, at that point in time, sir -- withdrawn.
3 Let me see if I understand you correctly.
4 Are you saying, sir, that your conversation with
5 your attorney to the effect that everything they were
6 saying about you could be said with equal force about
7 Marquis Who's Who, except for the non-delivery of
8 financial difficulties, and that was before the search
9 warrant?
10 A We had substantial conversations in May or June prior
11 to the search warrant, and that may have been veritably
12 the topic of the conversation.
13 Q That's after you learned there was a criminal
14 investigation, but before the search warrant was -- before
15 the search warrant was executed; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And did you expre ss to your attorney your belief of
18 what you were doing was not fraudulent?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And did your attorney concur in that at that point in
21 time?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q And so, you continued, although your attorney had
24 disagreed, you continued operating for several years; is
25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4927
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A No, sir.
2 Q Well, your business lasted until 1991, did it not?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And you continued operating from the time of that
5 conversation with your attorney in 1991; is that correct?
6 A Yes, with --
7 Q Your people continued using mailing lists; is that
8 correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And you were still not disclosing that's to customers
11 at that time?
12 A No, sir, not correct.
13 Q You disclose d to people that the name came from a
14 mailing list?
15 A If someone had indicated it in June -- pardon me,
16 July of 1990, it was no longer dealt within terms that you
17 were nominated to the best of my recollection.
18 Q To the best of your recollection?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And the letters were still going out saying you were
21 nominated?
22 A No, sir, the letter was changed.
23 Q The salespeople were still saying you were nominated?
24 A They were instructed not to at a certain point. We
25 began to make changes in June, July and May, the changes
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4928
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 developed over a period of time, and that phrase was
2 eliminated.
3 Q After you were arrested, you saw the criminal
4 complaint against you; is that correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Ov er 100 pages long; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And it contained allegations of your salespeople
9 saying nominated after -- during the summer of 1990; is
10 that correct?
11 A Those were the allegations, yes, sir.
12 Q Do you believe those to be incorrect?
13 A I think having 70 salespeople --
14 Q Yes or no, sir.
15 A I cannot answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
16 Q Now, at that point in time did you discuss with your
17 attorney as to whether or not you should immediately after
18 the search warrant was executed to rush to the government
19 to try to make some kind of deal?
20 A What period of time is that?
21 Q Immediately -- withdrawn.
22 During the point you first learned there was a
23 criminal investigation, sir, before the search warrant was
24 executed, after you say your attorney told you that he
25 disagreed with you --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4929
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Did you -- did you then suggest you rush to the
3 government and make some kind of deal like you ultimately
4 made?
5 A By ultimately made, what are you referring to, sir?
6 Q Did you suggest that you enter into a plea
7 negotiation with the government at that time?
8 A It was a topic we discussed in June or July.
9 Q But you didn't, did you?
10 A Did we not discuss it?
11 Q You didn't do that; is that correct?
12 A There were other negotiations with the government at
13 that time, sir.
14 Q And there were two more search warrants executed; is
15 that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And you didn't as part of these discussions
18 voluntarily turn over to the government things that you
19 understood were the s ubject of a criminal investigation at
20 that point in time; is that correct?
21 A Not accurate, sir.
22 Q Is it correct that you moved documents around to
23 prevent them from being found?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Did the government make such allegations in the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4930
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 search warrant applications?
2 A That was their allegation, yes.
3 Q It was false?
4 A Inaccurate, not false.
5 Q What the government said was inaccurate?
6 A As related to that one finite point, yes.
7 Q Now, is it your testimony today that at some point in
8 time, sir, you switched from acting with intent to
9 defraud -- without intent to defraud, to acting with
10 intent to defraud? Yes or no, sir?
11 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
12 Q In discussing wi th your attorney whether or not you
13 should plead guilty or fight the charges, did your
14 attorney go over with you the effect of the non-delivery?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Taking money without delivering?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And did he tell you it was a classic mail fraud or
19 telephone fraud type scheme?
20 A No, sir. He said it was not.
21 Q Did he say that the taking of people's money and not
22 delivering as a repeated course of conduct is not a crime?
23 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
24 Q Did he tell you that that might enter the case
25 against you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4931
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A It might have some bearing.
2 Q Did it tell you it was likely to result in your
3 conviction, sir?
4 A No, sir, not that issue, sir.
5 Q Up until you sp oke to your attorney, is it correct,
6 that you did not believe that you had committed any crime?
7 A That was my perception, yes.
8 Q You believed you were acting in good faith?
9 A Up through the period of May, 1990, the answer is
10 yes, in general, yes.
11 Q That was during the period of time that Reed was
12 suing you?
13 A I don't have a recollection of the date of the Reed
14 lawsuit.
15 Q Did the Reed lawsuit follow the criminal
16 investigation?
17 A I don't have a clear recollection of the timing.
18 They were in a similar time period. But I don't have a
19 recollection.
20 Q Is it fair to say as time went on, your business
21 became -- fell -- withdrawn.
22 Is it fair to say as time went on your business
23 fell shorter and shorter of the mark?
24 A You have to define that for me, sir.
25 Q The extent of non-deliveries in creased?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4932
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 A No, sir. What time are you into?
2 Q As the financial difficulties developed and
3 continued.
4 A There are actually ups and downs to answer the
5 question fully. I can't give you dates of the ups and
6 downs.
7 Q It wouldn't be accurate to say that your business got
8 better and better through its history up until the time it
9 closed?
10 A It would not be accurate to say that?
11 Q It would not be accurate?
12 A It got better and worse, and better and worse was
13 more accurate.
14 Q It is not fair to say that your company improved its
15 performance vis a vis its customers as time went on on a
16 continuing basis?
17 A I think it would --
18 Q Up to the time -- were you closed out?
19 A No. We closed volunta rily.
20 Q You closed voluntarily?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And up to that point it was getting better and
23 better?
24 A No, it was getting better and worse, and better and
25 worse.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4933
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Now, when you spoke to your attorney concerning --
2 withdrawn.
3 Over how long a period of time did you have
4 conversations with your attorney concerning whether or not
5 to plead guilty or to fight the charges?
6 A The discussions commenced in May of 1990, and were
7 determined in late June of 1992.
8 Q Of the, it is fair to say that these discussions took
9 place over a period of more than two years?
10 A Yes, sir. The options were discussed.
11 Q And was the decision to plead guilty itself, it was
12 not made until after the two year period was over; i s that
13 correct?
14 A The final decision, yes, sir.
15 Q The final decision?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And is one of the things that your attorney told you,
18 even if you were to win on the mail fraud, would you
19 likely lose on the tax fraud? Did that enter into your
20 decisions?
21 A We had many discussions about the likelihood to lose
22 one or the other.
23 Q Was that a discussion, that although you may win on
24 the mail fraud, you would lose on the tax fraud?
25 A I don't have a recollection of that particular
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4934
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 advice, no, sir, or discussion.
2 Q Over the two years of going back and forth with your
3 lawyer, did you explain to him that you never intended to
4 defraud, as you saw it?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And did you tell him all along you had not intended
7 to commit a crime?
8 A I can't answer with a yes or no, sir.
9 Q Did he tell you that although it was true, if it was
10 true, that it is possible that a jury might disagree?
11 A I need to expand that answer.
12 Q Yes or no, sir. I don't want an expanded answer.
13 A Repeat the question.
14 Q Did he tell you even if it was so, the jury might
15 disagree?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Did he tell you although it might have been true, you
18 would be convicted of tax fraud and still do the same
19 amount of time?
20 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.
21 Q Is it fair to say that your decision to plead guilty
22 did not come to final form until after you had already
23 begun cooperating?
24 A No, sir, it is not accurate.
25 Q Well, you entered into a cooperation agreement before
HARRY RAPAPO RT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4935
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 the date of your guilty plea; is that correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And although the cooperation agreement says that you
4 would plead guilty, your lawyer explained to you that they
5 couldn't make you plead guilty if you changed your mind;
6 is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q So, you waited to plead guilty until after the
9 cooperation agreement was in force a period of time; is
10 that correct?
11 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
12 Q How much time went by since the date the cooperation
13 agreement was signed and the date you pled guilty, how
14 many months?
15 A Several months.
16 Q And during that time you cooperated?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you were in a position to tell at that point in
19 time that the cooperation was going we ll from what you
20 could tell; is that correct?
21 A It seemed to be going in a satisfactory fashion.
22 Q Did you get feedback from Inspector Biegelman?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Did you get feedback from your attorney?
25 A Just in a general sense.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4936
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Who were you cooperating with at that time?
2 A What time?
3 Q The time period between the date of the signing of
4 the cooperation agreement and the date of the guilty plea?
5 A Inspector Leonard was the principal contact.
6 Q Did you get feedback from Inspector Leonard?
7 A Not in a proactive sense, no.
8 Q Certainly, you got a sense that things were going
9 well; is that correct?
10 A Things were going in a satisfactory format, yes.
11 Q Did your cooperation begin before you actually signed

12 the cooperation agreement?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And even at that point in time you sensed that things
15 were going well; is that correct?
16 A I can't find it as well, satisfactory would be
17 appropriate.
18 Q The tape recordings you made in January of 1993, was
19 that done before you signed the cooperation agreement?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q That was after?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Is that correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And what cooperation -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4937
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Now, I think you testified that when you were
2 sentenced to no jail at all, the six month of his home
3 detention, and the rest of your sentence, you weren't
4 surprised; is that correct?
5 A I don't think it is fair.
6 Q And did you say you were not surprised?
7 A I think it was Mr. Jenks's phrase.
8 Q Did you answer affirmatively to that question.
9 MR. GEDULDIG: Can we have the witness speak up?
10 THE COURT: I hear talking going on. I would
11 appreciate that counsel keep their voices down in the back
12 because I hear what they are saying, and that is also
13 leading to not being able to hear the witness. So please
14 do that.
15 Did you hear the last question and answer,
16 Mr. Geduldig?
17 MR. GEDULDIG: I didn't.
18 THE COURT: Did you get it, Mr. Reporter.
19 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
20 requested material.)
21 THE WITNESS: May I respond? If I answered
22 affirmatively it was not my intention to answer yes or no.
23 Q You are saying you were surprised?
24 A Partially yes, and partially no.
25 Q You were told, were you not, about the effect of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4938
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 cooperation?
2 A In a general sense, yes, sir.
3 Q I will not go through all of it again, but I will
4 qualify things about your understanding.
5 You were told by your lawyer, had you not, that
6 there was something called the sentencing guidelines?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Correct?
9 And that the sentencing guidelines, so long has
10 they applied, would require that you receive a certain
11 type of sentence?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And that sentence was a period of imprisonment; is
14 that correct?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q And it was estimated to be at least 70 months; is
17 that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And it was explained to you that absent highly
20 unusual circumstances, the sentencing Judge's hands would
21 be tied, and there would be no way for the sentencing
22 Judge to give you less than 70 months?
23 A You mean absence of a 5K letter?
24 Q Yes. Was that explained to you?
25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4939
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q And the 5K letter is what you got as a result of
2 cooperation; is that correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And you started cooperating before you actually pled
5 guilty; is that correct?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And once you pled guilty you knew that you would be
8 sentenced; is that correct?
9 A Of course.
10 Q Before that you didn't know whether you would be
11 sentenced or not; is that correct?
12 A No, that's not correct.
13 Q Well, if you went to trial, you didn't know if you
14 would win or not?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q If you won you wouldn't b e sentenced; is that
17 correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And now, is it fair to say that you waited to plead
20 guilty until you were pretty sure that your cooperation
21 would be successful?
22 A No, sir, it is not fair to say that.
23 Q You were not pretty sure at the time you pled guilty
24 that your cooperation was going well?
25 A Sir, I had no control of the date of pleading guilty.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4940
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q You had no control -- withdrawn.
2 Is it fair to say, sir, when you pled guilty at
3 that point in time, it was your belief that you were
4 getting positive feedback on your cooperation, and you
5 felt it was going well?
6 A It was going in a satisfactory fashion, yes.
7 Q Did you have a conversation with your attorney
8 concerning the likely effect of your cooperation on the
9 likely sentence you would receive?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Your attorney there -- told you there could be no
12 assurance as to the likely sentence?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And he told you nobody could make a promise; is that
15 correct?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q And he told you that he had experience in other cases
18 involving cooperation; is that correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q And he told you, did he not, that there was a very
21 substantial chance that you might not receive any prison
22 time at all; is that correct?
23 A I can't answer that yes or no.
24 Q He might not have wanted to get your hopes up too
25 high, lest you get disappointed, but he held it up as a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4941
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 possibility; is that correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q You yourself took it upon yourself to cooperate as
4 much as possible up until the date of sentence, and even
5 indicated to the prosecutors you would continue to
6 cooperate after that; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All with the hope of that coming true, no jail; is
9 that correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Had you ever been paid for any of the cooperation
12 that you performed?
13 A No, sir.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, your
15 Honor?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 Q Is it fair to say in pleading guilty after you
20 started your cooperation, you perceived yourself as
21 hedging your bet?
22 A You have to define that for me, sir.
23 Q You perceived yourself as minimizing your risk? Is
24 that your perception?
25 A Risk of what, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4942
Watstein-cross/Trabulus

1 Q Of an unfavorable outcome?
2 A Yes. I took it into consideration, yes.
3 Q And only after you began cooperating that you
4 perceived it that way?
5 A No, I always perceived it that way.
6 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
7 THE COURT: Anybody else?
8
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
11 Q Mr. Watstein, you wrote a number of books; is that
12 right?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q I think one of the books you wrote is How to Live to
15 Be a Hundred?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q You recommend in that book that you exercise?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Do you follow your own advice?
20 A In general, sir, yes, sir.
21 Q You also wrote a book on the Power and Pleasure of
22 Sex; is that right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Is that autobiographical?
25 A No, sir. But it would be a good idea, I think.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4943
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 Q You think so.
2 Does your picture appear on the jacket of that
3 book?
4 A I don't have a recollection of it being on the jacket
5 of that book, sir. It might be.
6 Q It might be?
7 A It might be. I don't have a recollection. It was
8 about 20 years ago.
9 Q You wrote a book on How to Live Like a Millionaire?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q When did you write that one?
12 A I think it was late 1970's.
13 Q And the point of that book was to appear to live like
14 a millionaire when in fact you were not a millionaire;
15 isn't that right?
16 A That's not quite accurately stated, sir.
17 Q You weren't writing a handy book for millionaires to
1 8 live like millionaires when they were millionaires? They
19 didn't need your book, right?
20 A I can't respond the way it is phrased.
21 Q Part of your book how to be a millionaire had to do
22 with creating the impression that a person was a
23 millionaire when in fact they were not; is that right?
24 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
25 Q You can't tell me whether or not any portion of that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4944
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 book dealt with advice to the reader on how to appear to
2 be a millionaire, when in fact they were not millionaires?
3 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
4 Q Okay.
5 Now, the name of your book was Who's Who of
6 business leaders; is that right?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q What was it?
9 A Who's Who in U.S. Executives.
10 Q Who's Who i n U.S. Executives.
11 Now, I think you said that at the time you were
12 running this business early on, you found out about Who's
13 Who Worldwide; is that right?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Didn't there come a point you found out about Who's
16 Who Worldwide?
17 A At the time I was running the business, yes.
18 Q That was my question.
19 A I am sorry. I misunderstood your question.
20 Q And after you found out about Who's Who Worldwide you
21 called up that business; is that right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q You spoke on one day, two separate occasions, with
24 Mr. Gordon; is that right?
25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4945
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 Q Is during the course of one of those conversations
2 you were told by Mr. Gordon, words to the effect, that he
3 provided closer supervision o f his sales staff than you
4 did; is that right?
5 A That's not the way he phrased it.
6 Q I said, words to the effect that he provided closer
7 supervision than you did. I am not going to quote him. I
8 didn't hear the conversation. But that's the effect of
9 what he said to you; is that right?
10 A I think it is close, not exactly.
11 Q Like I said, I wasn't there, I couldn't repeat it, I
12 can't be precise.
13 A Understood.
14 Q In your business, I think you testified that your
15 wife was not involved at all?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q But she had a title?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q What was her title?
20 A President.
21 Q Did you tell her she was president of the company?
22 A I might have, I might not have.
23 Q Why were you naming her as president of the company
24 when she had no involvement with the company?

25 A I had a tax liability, and if I were the president
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4946
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 and received a higher level of income might have impacted
2 against the collection level of the Internal Revenue
3 Service, and that's one of the items I pled guilty to.
4 Q Did she know you were doing that?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q You lied to your wife and told her, I am going to
7 make you president of this company, for whatever reason
8 you told her, and didn't tell her the truth?
9 A I misled my wife, yes.
10 Q I used the term "lie", did you lie to your wife?
11 A I think "lie" is an active phrase.
12 Q Accurate?
13 A Active, as opposed to misled, definition of the word.
14 Q I will try not to get involved in semantics with you,
15 if you permit me.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Ultimately your wif e pled guilty to recording
18 documents for properties around the country; is that
19 right?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q What did she plead guilty to?
22 A To an inaccurate mortgage application.
23 Q All right.
24 And that mortgage was placed? Ultimately that
25 mortgage was obtained?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4947
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And a mortgage document was filed?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And false information was provided by your wife to
5 get that document filed?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Okay.
8 In any event, what happened there was, I think
9 you said that you had beneficial use of properties that
10 were actually listed under your wife's name; is that
11 right?
12 A I said beneficial ownership.
13 Q Beneficial ownerships.
14 How many properties were there like that --
15 A Four.
16 Q -- that you had beneficial ownership of properties
17 listed under your wife's name?
18 A Four.
19 Q What was the name that your wife used?
20 A Her name, you mean?
21 Q What was the name that appeared on the documents that
22 you had beneficial ownership of that were put under her
23 name?
24 A Sherri West, W E S T. S H E R R I.
25 Q And, Mr. Watstein, when that was done, you were --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4948
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 withdrawn.
2 When was it that these properties were being
3 recorded under your wife's name?
4 A My recollection was from 1986 through 1990,
5 approximately.
6 Q Could it have been later than 1990?
7 A I don't think so, no.
8 Q Was there a recording of some sort done in 1990, to
9 your recoll ection?
10 A Not that I have a recollection of, no, sir.
11 Q So, why did you say 1990?
12 A I gave you a range, sir.
13 Q Okay.
14 These houses, where were they located?
15 I am sorry, were there homes that were being
16 recorded, these were four pieces of property?
17 A Two were homes.
18 Q What was the other two?
19 A One was a townhouse, and the other was a condominium.
20 Q Two homes, a townhouse and a condominium?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q The first was recorded in approximately 1986?
23 A To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.
24 Q And you did it at that time because you had a tax
25 liability?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4949
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Unrelated to the tax liability generated as a result
3 of the thievery you committed under the Who's Who of

4 Business Executives?
5 A There was no tax liability created on Who's Who,
6 sir.
7 Q Okay.
8 So, it was a tax liability prior to Who's Who
9 Business Executives?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And I think you said it was a $650,000 tax liability?
12 A Approximately.
13 Q Okay.
14 So, you recorded the first house in 1986 or
15 thereabouts?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Where was that property located?
18 A In Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
19 Q Is that the home you are living in today?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q And where was the second property located?
22 A I believe it was San Diego, Carlsbad, California,
23 C A R L S B A D.
24 Q And where was that property registered under your
25 wife's name of West?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4950
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 A I didn't hea r what you said.
2 Q Where was that property registered or recorded under
3 your wife's name of West at the time?
4 A '87, '88, I am not sure.
5 Q Where was the third property located?
6 A The North Shore Towers in Queens.
7 Q When was that property recorded under your wife's
8 name as West?
9 A I believe it was 1989, but I am not quite sure. It
10 might have been earlier.
11 Q And the fourth property, where was that located?
12 A In Mill Neck, New York.
13 Q When was that property registered or recorded under
14 your wife's name as West?
15 A I believe it was 1986, on the land; and '87 on the
16 home. I am not quite sure.
17 Q Can you give us an estimate of the total value of
18 these four pieces of property?
19 A I would be just guessing right now, sir.
20 Q You know what you bought them for?
21 A I don't have a clear recollection . But if you would
22 like a guess only --
23 Q Well, you bought it, didn't you? Didn't you?
24 A Yes, sir, I did.
25 Q You didn't buy it for five dollars, did you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4951
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 A No, sir.
2 Q These are all fairly expensive pieces of property; is
3 that right?
4 A No, sir, it is not accurate.
5 Q How much was the house in Florida in Fort Lauderdale?
6 A $89,000.
7 Q All right. You have a good recollection.
8 How about the one in Carlsbad, how much was it
9 purchased for?
10 A I don't have a clear recollection.
11 Q Give us your best estimate?
12 A A few hundred thousand dollars.
13 Q You don't have an idea, you bought a piece of
14 property not even ten years ago for several hundred
15 thousands of dollars, and you are telling us you don't
16 have a clear recollection of the purchase price?
17 A Sir, excuse me. I responded to your question.
18 Q As best you can?
19 A As best I can.
20 Q Honestly?
21 A I gave you an estimate.
22 Q Honestly?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q The third piece of property, in North Shore Towers,
25 how much did you buy that for?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4952
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 A I believe it was $200,000.
2 Q Now we are talking about properties worth roughly in
3 the neighborhood of a half a million dollars; is that
4 right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And the Mill Neck property, how much was the land
7 purchased for?
8 A I previously testified, approximately $600,000.
9 Q The house, how much did that cost?
10 A The house was constructed. My guess is the
11 construction value is five or six hundred thousand
12 dollars.
13 Q We are going over one and a half million dollars?
14 A I told you two million dollars approximately.
15 Q You didn't tell me that?
16 A I gave you an estimate.
17 Q You just told me for the first time?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q The property as a group is worth over two million
20 dollars?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a lunch
23 break?
24 MR. GEDULDIG: Yes, Judge, I will eat a good
25 lunch, and so will Mr. Watstein.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4953
Watstein-cross/Geduldig

1 THE COURT: When you come back you will be more
2 vigorous.
3 MR. GEDULDIG: I will try.
4 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a
5 recess for lunch. Keep an open mind, and do not discuss
6 the case. We will recess until 1:35 to give you a full
7 hour.
8 Have a nice lunch.
9 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
10 courtroom.)
11 (Luncheon Recess.)

And that's just the morning session!
Feb 19 - Afternoon Session Continued

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This site is concerned with The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club, and the double scandal of government and judical corruption in one of the Unholy Federal Trials and the concomitant news media blackout regarding this incredible story.

Sixteen weeks of oft-explosive testimony, yet not a word in any of 1200 news archives. This alone supports the claim that this was a genuinely dirty trial; in fact, one of the dirtiest federal trials of the 20th century.

Show your support for justice, for exoneration of the innocent, and perhaps most importantly, government accountability, by urgently contacting your Senator, the White House, and the U.S. Department of Justice.



The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club
How Thomas FX Dunn proved himself the worst attorney in America

Unholy Federal Trials  - The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club

The Who's Who Worldwide Registry Ridiculous Trial, lasting several months, at a staggering cost to the taxpayer,
all in secrecy, proved to be an egregiously dirty trial, among the Stinkiest Trials In America.
Governmental postal corruption, worst attorneys in America, scummiest lawyer alive,
American political prisoners of Reed Elsevier, largest media corporation, greediest and perhaps most corrupt multinational corporation...
it's all here.     The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club,
one of the Unholy Federal Trialsamidst a news media blackout

Unholy Federal Trials- Perversions of Justice

How rare it is to find a case that can offer not merely two or three, instead, more than a dozen major reasons for overturning that conviction.
Here is a case studied by a respected federal judge for many months, who found that no crime had been committed, and dismissed the case.

Reed Elsevier, Ltd, as the single richest and most powerful publisher in more than one hundred countries around the world,
easily. empirically and truthfully described as one of the most corrupt corporations in all of human history,
perverted the foundations of American justice in the Who's Who Worldwide case with cash, power, and perqs.

Imagine a trial where not ten percent of the proceedings have ANY connection with most of the defendants.
That alone should require a separation of trial. In this case, NOT EVEN ONE PERCENT of the proceedings,
accusations, presented evidence, or accepted facts, had anything to do with the "sales" defendants.

The Who's Who Worldwide case was all about Bruce Gordon, his machinations and his accountant,
and the many companies operated in secrecy by Gordon and Liz Sauter, his true "henchman."

For days and days and weeks and weeks, all the discussion was about Gordon and his actions.
Prosecution witness after prosecution witness exculpated the sales defendants, yet,
this same judge who had previously dismissed the case after months of study,
was under one of the worst pressures any judge can be subjected to:
pressure from the federal court of appeals above him, who, in
New York's bailiwick, remains under the control of....
Reed Elsevier, the most powerful force today
in the American arena of jurisprudence.

This can be fixed by Presidential Pardon.
Call 202-456-1414 to lift your voice.


Unholy Federal Trials|| Worst Attorneys In America Thomas FX Dunn included