Stinkiest Trials In America
The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club

Click for Sampling of Members - WoW!!     What a list!       Strictly Politics      Judge?      Incredible list of alleged victims

Tiny sampling of Managing Directors     Cross Benjamin    Cross Springer     Direct Quote         Con THESE People?!!

Million-dollar con man testifying to stay out of prison        America's Best & Brightest       Main Page       Dirty Jury?

                                                          Masters and Millionaires

5413

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1)
4 v. : U.S. Courthouse
5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO
6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC.,
7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE
8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN
9 REFFSIN, :    TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
10 Defendants. :February 24, 1998
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:45 o'clock a.m.

12 BEFORE:

13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury
14 APPEARANCES:
15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER
16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza
17 Brooklyn, New York 11201
By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ.
18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys
19 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ.
20 For Bruce W. Gordon
170 Old Country Road, Suite 600
21 Mineola, New York 11501

22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ.
For Who's Who Worldwide
23 Registry, Inc. and
Sterling Who's, Who, Inc.
24 332 Willis Avenue
Mineola, New York 11501
25
(cont'd)


HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5414

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):

2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski
3 6800 Jericho Turnpike
Syosset, New York 11791
4
ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ.
5 For Oral Frank Osman
3000 Marcus Avenue
6 Lake Success, New York 11042

7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ.
For Laura Weitz
8 319 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
9
MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ.
10 For Annette Haley
400 South Oyster Bay Road
11 Hicksville, New York 11801

12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ.
For Scott Michaelson
13 225 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
14
THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ.
15 For Steve Rubin
150 Nassau Street
16 New York, New York 10038

17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ.
For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue
Hempstead, New York 11551
19

20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR
United States District Court
21 Two Uniondale Avenue
Uniondale, New York 11553
22 (516) 485-6558

23
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5415

1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N

2

3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the

4 absence of the jury.)

5 THE COURT: Where is your witness?

6 MS. SCOTT: Right next door.

7 THE COURT: Bring him in.

8 MR. LEE: I have a preliminary application.

9 THE COURT: Why did you wait for now?

10 MR. LEE: Only thing I wanted to do is to let

11 Mr. Rapapo rt know I needed one minute with the Court, and

12 I thought that was done. I assume you were notified. I

13 apologize.

14 THE COURT: A miscommunication. It is all

15 right.

16 MR. LEE: I am asking permission to bring into

17 the courtroom my personal cassette player. The reason

18 being is when I review the tapes, I had queued portions of

19 it to my own counter, which is different from the counter

20 in court.

21 THE COURT: What is a cassette player? The thing

22 that plays these tapes?

23 MR. LEE: Yes. Mine has a counter, which I don't
24 believe queues out to exactly what the government has.
25 THE COURT: Bring it in.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5416

1 MR. LEE: Thank you.

2 The second application, with respect to the

3 testimony of Mr. Safer, I am requesting a direction to

4 your Hon or for the government to instruct Mr. Safer not to

5 mention the prior employment of my client, Ms. Weitz, as

6 Steven Watstein's Who's Who's organization. He was also a

7 prior employee.

8 We discussed it in the context of an in limine

9 motion. And I believe the government did say that they

10 will not bring it up in their direct. But, of course, I

11 wanted to make sure to remind everyone so it doesn't get

12 blurted out.

13 THE COURT: Is Mr. Safer the next witness?

14 MR. WHITE: No. We have Mr. West --

15 THE COURT: Please advise him not to say anything

16 about that other employment.

17 MR. SCHOER: I join in that application with

18 respect to my client. I originally made the motion.

19 THE COURT: She also worked for Mr. West?

20 MR. SCHOER: Yes.

21 MR. WHITE: We didn't intend to elicit that.

22 THE COURT: Just mention it to him.

23 MR. WHITE: I will.
24 THE COURT: By the way, don't bring up that he
25 talked to the lawyer about the case. In other words, in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5417

1 cross-examination, don't say, well, did you discuss this

2 case -- you can say it. But if you do, he might come out

3 with something, he told me not to say something. So just

4 watch it.

5 Did I make myself clear? I don't think so.

6 MR. SCHOER: Yes, you did.

7 THE COURT: All right, let's go.

8 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

9 courtroom.)

10 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.

11 Please be seated.

12 I have to say that you made a valiant effort to

13 be here. It didn't really come off too well, but you made

14 a valiant effort. So I am thankful for that.

15 However, we delayed you a little while even after

16 you delayed a little bit. So it is even.

17 We will call it a draw.

18 You may proceed.

19 Where are we, Mr. White?

20 MR. WHITE: I began my redirect on Friday to

21 Mr. Watstein -- of Mr. Watstein.

22 THE COURT: Mr. Watstein you are still -- you

23 better readminister the oath again. I don't know how long
24 it was. When did you start testifying?
25 THE WITNESS: Tuesday, Monday?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5418

1 THE COURT: Administer the oath again then.

2

3 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,

4 called as a witness, having been previously

5 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

6 follows:

7

8 THE CLERK: Please be seated.

9 State your full name for the record.

10 THE WITNESS: Steven Watstein, W A T S T E I N.

11 THE COURT: You mayor proceed, Mr. White.

12

13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)

14 BY MR. WHITE:

15 Q Mr. Watstein, let me give you Exhibit 1379, the

16 transcript of your January 1993 meeting with Mr. Martin at

17 the Garden City Hotel.

18 Now, do you recall you were asked questions by

19 Mr. Nelson about various portions of this tape recording?

20 A In a general sense, yes.

21 Q Now, is it correct that ads were placed in

22 newspapers, and that's what Mr. Martin was responding to

23 for this job interview?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Now, you recall Mr. Nelson asked you at that time as

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5419
Watstein-redirect/White


1 to whether your arrest was public knowledge?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And was it at that time?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And since it was last week, I wanted to be accurate

6 and go over one or two questions M r. Nelson asked you.

7 Mr. Nelson asked you: Would I be correct that a

8 lot of people in the industry knew that you were arrested

9 and were in trouble for running your business

10 fraudulently?

11 Answer: That is correct.

12 MR. WHITE: I am reading from 4717 of the trial

13 transcript:

14 Question by Mr. Nelson. Certainly it appears

15 that Frank Martin was aware of this; is that right?

16 And the answer was: Yes, sir.

17 Q So, notwithstanding that Mr. Martin was aware that

18 you had been arrested, he wanted to work for you; is that

19 right?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Now, if you can turn to page 6 of the transcript.

22 Now, if you look at the second portion that is

23 attributed to Mr. Martin on that tape --
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And if you look where he says, and I will read it,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPO RTER

5420
Watstein-redirect/White


1 although, umm, I, I make it a point that, you know, you

2 can't say anything, that you can't deviate from the

3 presentation. Because, number one, the presentation

4 basically does work. Umm, and, number two, the postal

5 authorities, and all those other bad guys out there, might

6 be listening. So it behooves you to just stay within the

7 framework of the presentation.

8 Do you see that, Mr. West?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And what was your understanding as to Mr. Martin was

11 referring to as the postal authorities and all those other

12 bad guys out there?

13 MR. NELSON: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q Now, do you recall in connection with that passage

16 Mr. Nelson asked you, isn't it true that Mr. Martin

17 wouldn't say stick to the script, if the script was

18 inaccurate, do you recal l he asked you that question?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Do you later in the conversation ask Mr. Martin if

21 the script was inaccurate?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And tell us where you do that.
24 A You will have to refresh my memory as to which page,
25 sir?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5421
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q Well, if you take a look at page -- look at page 9.

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q What do you ask him about the accuracy of the script?

4 A At a certain point I ask, what -- the, the

5 presentations that I have seen had a lot of puffing in it,

6 a lot of exaggerations in it. What was the typical,

7 where, where, where, where did his presentation --

8 withdraw it inconsistent with reality?

9 Q If you look at the rest of 9 and page 10 and 11, does

10 Mr. Martin tell you where he feels it is inconsistent with

11 reality?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Now, do you recall Mr. Nelson asked you with respect

14 to this tape whether it was true that if the managers at

15 Who's Who Worldwide didn't get a commission, they,

16 therefore, had no incentive to let everyone in; do you

17 remember he asked you that?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Do you ask Mr. Martin in this conversation about the

20 percentage of people who get in?

21 A Yes. I believe that I do.

22 Q Okay.

23 If you can take a look at page 17, what do you
24 ask him?
25 MR. NELSON: Objection to the form of the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5422
Watstein-redirect/White


1 question, to the form. It is by way of a statement and

2 not a question.

3 THE COURT: Overruled.

4 A I say if -- was everybody accepted there if, if, a

5 person breathing would buy a membership. I mean, would --

6 and then Martin responds, umm, only if it was, you know,

7 like if it was something like, umm, umm, a porno shop or

8 something, really.

9 Q And further on down, do you ask him about a specific

10 percentage being accepted?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q What do you ask him?

13 A I say, but 99 percent were accepted is what you're

14 saying?

15 And he says, yeah, I would say so. If they got

16 the money. As long as they weren't totally outright, umm,

17 just, you know, sure, yeah, laughs, yeah, laughs, really.

18 Q Okay, now, if you can go back to page 9, and the part

19 you read before, where you ask him, where was the

20 presentation inconsistent with reality, right?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Do you see that?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q All right.
25 And a few lines down Mr. Martin says, I suspect

HA RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5423
Watstein-redirect/White


1 the major flaw was telling people that they were

2 recommended by other, other, other members.

3 Do you see that?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Now, did you make Mr. Martin give you that answer?

6 A No, sir.

7 MR. NELSON: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Overruled.

9 Q In that meeting, was there anything preventing

10 Mr. Martin from saying that, no, there was nothing

11 inconsistent with reality?

12 MR. JENKS: Objection.

13 THE COURT: First of all you are interrupting the

14 question again. I thought we were past that stage.

15 MR. NELSON: I apologize. It was one of those

16 types of questions.

17 THE COURT: I know you are a vigorous advocate.

18 You all are. But just wait until the question is over,

19 will you?

20 MR. NELSON: Yes, Judge.

21 T HE COURT: Can I hear that?

22 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

23 requested material.)
24 THE COURT: What is your objection, it is a
25 simplistic type of question.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5424
Watstein-redirect/White


1 MR. NELSON: Objection to the form of the

2 question. It is a leading question being asked on

3 redirect examination.

4 THE COURT: It is not exactly leading. And so

5 you understand what leading is, and I will say it again.

6 I said it before.

7 There was nothing that prevented you from saying

8 anything other than that, was there?

9 That's a leading question.

10 He says, was there anything that prevented -- let

11 me hear what he said, maybe you are right.

12 MR. WHITE: I think you are right, your Honor.

13 THE COURT: It is reassuring to have your help.

14 Let me hear the question.

15 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

16 requested material.)

17 THE COURT: That is not a leading question in my

18 view. Was there anything. That's the difference,

19 overruled.

20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, there was nothing that

21 prevented him.

22 THE COURT: As I said, it is a very simple type

23 of obvious question. But if the government wants to ask
24 obvious questions like that, let them ask it. I would
25 hope the government wouldn't do that. It is not

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5425
Watstein-redirect/White


1 necessary.

2 MR. WHITE: I am trying to avoid it, your Honor.

3 Q Now following down on page 9, Mr. Martin, the next

4 thing Mr. Martin says is: Now, there is, there is a way

5 to combat that. And he never really went out of his way

6 by, umm, umm actually ask ing the members to, and you said

7 really recommend people?

8 THE COURT: No. It is just the reverse -- I beg

9 your pardon. I am sorry.

10 Q And on the top of page 10, and Mr. Martin says, not

11 only that, I think if you, umm, make some kind of effort

12 to do so, think of the leads that you get. I mean these

13 are highly qualified leads.

14 Let me stop there for a minute.

15 MR. NELSON: Judge, I am objecting to him

16 stopping in the middle of sentences, the rule of

17 completeness would require at least the completeness of a

18 sentence.

19 THE COURT: Not necessarily. Depending on what

20 the question is. You might be right. But what is the

21 question?

22 You will not go through all this again, we will

23 be here for three more weeks.
24 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor. There are certain
25 specific things I wish to ask.

HA RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5426
Watstein-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: Make it specific.

2 The Court has accommodated you by letting this

3 witness go in and out. I will not go over the whole

4 testimony because time has elapsed since then. Do you

5 follow what I am saying, Mr. White?

6 MR. WHITE: Yes. I don't intend to, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: All right. Keep it short.

8 Q Let me complete the sentence.

9 After he says highly qualified leads, he says,

10 the few times that people actually gave names of their own

11 volition, 90 percent of the time we had turned them

12 around, you know, to umm, to umm, into a membership thing.

13 Can you tell us from your experience in

14 telemarketing what that term, highly qualified lead means?

15 A Somebody who would be easy to sell.

16 Q Now, if you can turn to page 17.

17 The pas sage we used before where Mr. Martin

18 mentioned the porno shop; do you recall that?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 MR. NELSON: Objection. Once again, it was

21 Mr. West who said short of a porno shop or murderer. I

22 will object to the characterization of the testimony this

23 way, taking it out of context in the manner he is doing.
24 It is highly improper, likely suggestive, and I object to
25 the procedure to be followed by the government.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5427
Watstein-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: First of all getting back to basics

2 again. From now on please just say "objection."

3 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Overruled.

5 Q My question is: Who is the first person in this

6 conversation to use the words porno shop, you or

7 Mr. Martin?

8 A Mr. Martin, sir.

9 THE COURT: You were on page 17, you went back to

10 9, now you are back to 17. This is what takes time,

11 Mr. White. I don't want to go through this again. Get

12 through with 17.

13 MR. WHITE: I am sorry, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: I know you do it in your own way.

15 But, my goodness, why are we going back and forth? You

16 were at that point before. Why not complete it.

17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I was trying to complete

18 the thought on page 9. I am sorry. I just have a couple

19 of questions on this area.

20 THE COURT: I don't interfere with lawyers'

21 technique and strategy, except when it gets repetitive and

22 unnecessary.

23 My suggestion, to you, sir, is to get one page
24 and conclude it.
25 MR. WHITE: I will stay on one page from now on,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5428
Watstein-redirect/White


1 your Hon or.

2 Q Now, Mr. Nelson asked you about that passage and I

3 want to go over briefly what he asked you.

4 Mr. Nelson asked you on page 4706 of the

5 transcript.

6 So, I am correct that Frank Martin stated that

7 there are some forms of businesses, no matter how large

8 that Who's Who would not accept the principal of that

9 business for membership because of the nature of the

10 business that the person was engaging in; is that

11 correct?

12 And you said, yes, he made that statement.

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And then Mr. Nelson also asked you: Am I correct in

15 stating that despite your product Frank Martin told you,

16 you know, there are people, one, that no matter how much

17 money they earn because of the nature of their business,

18 were not taking, were not bringing in the porno king, no

19 matter how much money the man makes? Did he not tell you

20 that?

21 Answer by you, yes, he did.

22 Do you remember those questions by Mr. Nelson?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q If you can take a look at Defendant's Exhibit Q, the
25 Who's Who Global Edition, 1993-1994, and look at page 34

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5429
Watstein-redirect/White


1 in the second paragraph -- the second column, do you see

2 an entry there for a man named Larry Flint?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Tell us who Larry Flint is.

5 MR. GEDULDIG: Objection, Judge.

6 THE COURT: Overruled.

7 A A gentleman who publishes --

8 MR. GEDULDIG: There has to be a basis for him

9 knowing who Larry Flint is.

10 THE COURT: Isn't he -- well, I don't want to say

11 anything.

12 MR. GEDULDIG: I haven't seen the movie, but

13 there could be any number of Larry Flints.

14 THE COURT: There could be, there could be.

15 MR. WHITE: Let me set a foundation.

16 Q The Larry Flint listed in that book, does he say he

17 publishes magazines?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Okay.

20 Do you know a Larry Flint -- of a Larry Flint who

21 publishes magazines?

22 A Yes.

23 Q What kind of magazines does he publish?
24 A Largely pornographic.
25 Q Could Larry Flint accurately be categorized as a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5430
Watstein-redirect/White


1 porno king in Mr. Nelson's words?

2 MR. NELSON: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q Let me take that back from you.

5 If you can turn to Exhibit 1330 in the transcript

6 book, which is another tape recording you were asked about

7 on cross-examination.

8 I am sorry, 1308. I have the wrong number.

9 Now, do you see that? That's a tape of you

10 talking to Scott Michaelson, and that's the one in which

11 you took the identity of Ed Grimaldi who owned a beauty

12 salon?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And do you remember Mr. Neville asked you questions

15 about that tape?

16 A In a general sense, yes, sir.

17 Q Now, look on the third page.

18 Do you see the third entry for Scott?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q He refers to the acceptance rate there?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And prior to that had you asked him about the

23 acceptance rate?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Where had you done that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5431
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A I believe the second entry is accurate. I might have

2 not asked him. He might have volunteered it.

3 Q All right.

4 Looking at page 4, the second entry for you,

5 where it says e.g.

6 A Ri ght.

7 Q You say, quote, in other words, I am not on some kind

8 of a mailing list somewhere or something. Do you see

9 that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Mr. Michaelson, said, no, not that I know of, no,

12 because we have to reject more people than we actually

13 accept. Do you see that?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Now, if you look at page 7, in the middle of the

16 page, Scott says, okay, umm, do you see that entry?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Now, after he learned that you were a beauty parlor

19 owner, what duration membership did he offer you?

20 A Two years.

21 Q Mr. Neville asked you about the fact that he offered

22 you a two-year duration, and you indicated in response to

23 his question that that was, quote, reducing the unit of
24 sale.
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5432
Watstein-redirect/ White


1 Q What did you mean by that?

2 A Many times when a prospect has limited financial

3 wherewithal, the salesperson would lower the unit of sale,

4 instead of selling five year or lifetime membership, he

5 would sell the prospect a two-year membership, in order to

6 motivate the prospect to say yes rather than saying it is

7 too much money, I won't buy it.

8 Q Mr. Neville asked you if you expected Mr. Michaelson

9 to reject you because you were a hair salon. Do you

10 remember he asked you that?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Is it the passage we read on the previous page, did

13 Mr. Michaelson say anything about rejecting people?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q What did he say?

16 A He said that they reject 5,000 out of 6,000, or

17 accept 1,000 out of 6,000.

18 Q And on the second entry on the bottom page 7 for

19 Scott, he says, we, we wouldn't take y our money for it; do

20 you see that?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Mr. Neville pointed out to you that he said that; do

23 you remember that?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q If you review the following, the rest of the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5433
Watstein-redirect/White


1 transcript, does Mr. Michaelson try to sell you a

2 membership?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And is he willing to take your money for it?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q If you look on page 10 and 11, does he offer you a

7 phone number?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Okay.

10 Now, if you look at Exhibit 1325.

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Now, that's a tape recording that Mr. Geduldig asked

13 you about that you have with Annette Haley; is that right?

14 A That's correct, sir.

15 Q Now, if you look at 5, about two-thirds of the way

16 down, Annette says at least 6,000 apply every single

17 month.

18 You say, six, oh, I see.

19 Annette, but we don't accept everybody.

20 Do you see that?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Now, I want to look at the question you asked on the

23 top of page 6. You say, no, my question is, how, half the
24 people get rejected? A third?
25 Now, if half or a third were rejected, how many

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5434
Watstein-redirect/White


1 would be accepted?

2 A The inverse, obviously a half or two-thirds.

3 Q So 50 to 60 to 70 percent?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And Annette's response is I would say we accept about

6 5,000 -- five percent; do you see that?

7 A Yes, sir, 5 percent, yes.

8 Q And is it correct that she picks the lower,

9 therefore, more desirable figure than what you said in the

10 question?

11 A That is correct, sir.

12 Q After that you said, and Mr. Geduldig asked you about

13 it, so I am not going to find a delicatessen owner in this

14 thing?

15 Annette responds, no.

16 Do you remember Mr. Geduldig asked you about the

17 Stage Deli in New York, and Ben's Deli here on Long

18 Island?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Now, had you made any other calls to Who's Who

21 Worldwide posing as a delicatessen owner?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q At the risk of flipping around, if you can look back
24 at Exhibit 1306.
25 THE COURT: That is definitely a risk.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5435
Watstein-redirect/White


1 MR. WHITE: I concede that.

2 Q Do you see Exhibit 1306?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And can you tell us what the date you recorded 1306

5 is?

6 A If I am reading it properly, O ctober 23rd, 1994.

7 Q When is it in comparison to when you spoke to Annette

8 Haley on tape 1325 -- it is before it, do you pose as a

9 deli owner?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 MR. GEDULDIG: For clarification purposes, can we

12 know the participants of that conversation?

13 MR. WHITE: Yes. Mr. West and Jill Barnes.

14 MR. GEDULDIG: I will object to that. There was

15 no direct examination that I made of this man regarding

16 Jill Barnes. I examined him purely on conversations he

17 had with my client. To impose what Jill Barnes said to

18 Mr. Watstein on my client --

19 THE COURT: Not necessarily, you went into the

20 question of this delicatessen ownership. And that is

21 apparently what subject Mr. White is on, which is why he

22 is flip flopping again.

23 MR. GEDULDIG: In that case I will ask Mr. White
24 to read the entire question and answer, no, that he
25 referred to. I believe it is misleading.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5436
Watstein-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: Keep your voice up.

2 MR. GEDULDIG: I believe it is misleading. There

3 is a short paragraph there. He read one word, no.

4 THE COURT: What page on 1325-A, is it?

5 MR. GEDULDIG: Page 6, Exhibit 1325-A, about

6 halfway down to paper, Mr. White read, no, that's it.

7 That's all he read. There is more to it all dealing with

8 the list of the delicatessen owners.

9 THE COURT: I am not following you,

10 Mr. Geduldig. On page 6 you say Mr. White didn't state

11 the full question and answer?

12 MR. GEDULDIG: That's correct.

13 Q Which one are you referring to?

14 MR. GEDULDIG: Referring to about halfway down

15 the page, Judge, Mr. White read, Annette says no.

16 The introduction sentence i s a few attributions

17 on top of it. So, I am not going to find a delicatessen

18 owner in this thing.

19 If you go down, go down about three or four

20 attributions, there is a whole paragraph there regarding

21 exactly what Mr. Watstein said about finding a

22 delicatessen owner.

23 THE COURT: I am afraid you will have to bring
24 that up in recross, if you wish to do so. This is now
25 redirect, and counsel is properly following the rules in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5437
Watstein-redirect/White


1 my opinion.

2 Go ahead.

3 Q Now, looking at 1306 --

4 THE COURT: Except for the flip-flopping, of

5 course.

6 Q 1306, at the bottom, how many delicatessens do you

7 say you own?

8 A One.

9 Q And what do you say your educationally background is?

10 A It --

11 Q At the bott om of page 3?

12 A Junior in high school.

13 Q At the top of page 4, how many years has your deli

14 been open?

15 A I say, umm, almost two.

16 Q Were you offered a membership?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor, limiting

19 instruction.

20 THE COURT: Limiting instruction as to what?

21 MR. LEE: As to the admissibility of this person,

22 Ms. Barnes.

23 THE COURT: This is being offered for two
24 reasons. One, in redirect examination to explain the
25 situation -- allegedly explain the situation as to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5438
Watstein-redirect/White


1 delicatessen owners, and secondly as far as Jill Barnes is

2 concerned, that is only against the defendant Who's Who

3 Worldwide. That's correct.

4 Very well.

5 Is that correct, Mr. White?

6 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.

7 Q Now, the last tape I want to look at is

8 Exhibit 1330. Do you have that in front of you?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And if you look at the bottom of page 1 and page 2,

11 do you indicate -- I am sorry, let me back up.

12 This is a conversation with Steve Walden; is that

13 correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Now, do you indicate there in that conversation that

16 you have had a prior conversation with Steve Walden?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks asked you if it is true

19 that you had had such a conversation? And the answer is

20 no; is that right?

21 A That is correct.

22 Q Now, if you look on page 2 at the top, as Mr. Jenks

23 pointed out, you had not spoken to him before. And
24 Mr. Walden answers -- you ask him, do you recall the
25 conversation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5439
Watstein-redirect/White


1 He answers, I definitely do, yes.

2 Do you see that?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You say, oh, good, good, good.

5 Walden, it's not common that I get people who are

6 not multibillionaires, CEOs, so when I get a real life

7 person who can benefit of course it stands out in my mind.

8 Do you see that?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And look at page 9, and I want to ask you about a

11 statement that Mr. Jenks asked you about, where you say in

12 the middle of the page, well, I really don't have any

13 expert -- to be honest with you, honestly, I don't want to

14 mislead the people because I just, I just getting the

15 promotion as of January 1.

16 Do you see that?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And again, Mr. Jenks asked you whether you had really

19 gotten a promotion; is that right?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And you had?

22 A That's right.

23 Q And Mr. Walden's response is, hey, fake it 'til you
24 make it, right?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5440
Watstein-redirect/White


1 THE COURT: The transcript I have says fake it

2 'til you make.

3 MR. WHITE: I am sorry, I added the last word. I

4 am sorry.

5 Q Now, you can put away the book of transcripts.

6 Now, Mr. West, you were asked a lot of questions

7 on cross-examination last week regarding whether or not

8 your company intentionally did not deliver the products it

9 promised to its customers. Do you recall all that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And can you tell us the sequence of events that led

12 to the non-delivery of the products of your company?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 In 1988 we had contracted out the data entry and

15 computerization pro cess to an outside vendor located in

16 Connecticut. And in general that went rather smoothly,

17 and that position was administered -- delivered on a

18 timely basis as was all the related products.

19 In 1989 we chose to bring that function in-house

20 and hired our own in-house computer expert. I gave that

21 gentleman a check for $42,000 to set up an internal

22 computer facility. And, unfortunately, he turned out to

23 have severe emotional and alcoholic problems. And the
24 computer system failed. A great deal of data was lost,
25 probably tens of thousands, maybe 10,000 names in total,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5441
Watstein-redirect/White


1 and we found ourselves not able to deliver a great number

2 of books and facts not knowing who it was to.

3 We retained a number of consultants, one was

4 Stafford & Consultant s, a college professor in Long Island

5 who had a computer outfit and we always were plagued as to

6 our computer system. Eventually we utilized our own

7 computer system, utilizing Stafford & Computers,

8 or & Associates system, and we had a great number of

9 complaints.

10 Q Did you intentionally not deliver the products that

11 customers purchased from your company?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q If you can take a look at Defendant's Exhibit AK,

14 which is in evidence, that's the information that -- the

15 charges to which you pled guilty; is that correct?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Did you plead guilty to intentional non-delivery of

18 product as mentioned in that information?

19 A No, sir.

20 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: What ground?

22 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, it is asking for a

23 characterization. Intentional non-delivery of pro duct is
24 not a crime as such. You have an information alleging
25 criminal conduct, and it encompasses a variety of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5442
Watstein-redirect/White


1 different acts, not all set forth there necessarily. It

2 is a misleading question.

3 THE COURT: There is no crime entitled

4 "intentionally non-delivery of Who's Who directories," is

5 there?

6 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor, but it is not set

7 forwards in the information.

8 THE COURT: What did you plead guilty to?

9 THE WITNESS: A number of items, your Honor,

10 indicating that people were nominated, when in fact they

11 were not; indicating that we in fact had a selection

12 committee --

13 THE COURT: You pled guilty to mail fraud?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

15 THE COURT: What else?

16 THE WITNESS: Income tax evasion , and the filing

17 of an improper not for profit permit with the post office,

18 and the filing of improper receipts on insurance claims.

19 THE COURT: All right.

20 I think the asking of that question is -- I am

21 going to sustain the objection.

22 Q Now, you were asked questions on cross-examination

23 regarding the home you were building on Long Island; do
24 you remember that?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5443
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q Were you involved in setting that fire?

2 A Absolutely not.

3 Q You were asked whether or not you received insurance

4 proceeds from that. Did you?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Who did?

7 A The U.S. Government.

8 Q How did that happen?

9 A We forwarded the proceeds as part of the agreement

10 with the U.S. Government.

11 Q Did yo u benefit in any way by the fire at your home?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q You were asked questions about the charge to which

14 you pled guilty involving the false statement to the

15 Postal Service?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And that involved some sort of non-profit

18 corporation?

19 A That is correct, sir.

20 Q Can you explain what you did in connection with that

21 charge.

22 A Yes, sir. I created an entity called American Sales

23 and Marketing Institute. We filed a not for profit
24 application in New York State, and did not complete all of
25 the backup paperwork. We were subsequently granted a not

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5444
Watstein-redirect/White


1 for profit status by the post office. One of our

2 competitors complained about that status. There was a

3 legal matter. It was ruled that we in fact were not

4 entitled to that not for profit status, and I pled guilty

5 to filing an improper not for profit application.

6 Q You were asked a lot of questions on

7 cross-examination as to whether or not your company gave

8 refunds; do you recall that?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And in light of the sequence of events you described

11 before with the computer problem, can you explain when

12 your company refused to give refunds?

13 A We actually never refused in total to give refunds,

14 Mr. White. But the sequence of events is that in 1988 and

15 into early 1989, there were very few refund requests. But

16 all those refund requests were honored substantially

17 immediately.

18 As we experienced the computer failure in 1989,

19 we experienced huge losses which constrained our cash

20 flow, and I took a lot of steps, none of which appropriate

21 to delay and re fuse refund.

22 Q You were asked on cross-examination regarding an

23 allegation that you had not provided health insurance to
24 your employee; do you recall that?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5445
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q Did you provide health insurance for your employees?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And was there a time when that insurance was no

4 longer in effect?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Can you tell us what happened?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 To the best of my knowledge what happened was a

9 payment was not made on a timely basis to Blue Cross,

10 although the policy clearly was in effect. I did not

11 learn of that until I received a letter from Blue Cross

12 indicating that they would terminate the policy.

13 We immediately sent a messenger into the city

14 with a check for the alleged open premium deficit. They

15 refused to accept that check, and accordingly terminated

16 the insurance policy.

17 We offered to purchase insurance policies for any

18 employees who wanted those policies who were so

19 disadvantaged.

20 Q Mr. Neville asked you on cross-examination regarding

21 a lawsuit brought by Marquis Who's Who; do you remember

22 that?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Did Marquis Who's Who bring a lawsuit against you and
25 your company?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5446
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And you indicated to -- let me back up.

3 Were you aware that they also brought a lawsuit

4 against Who's Who Worldwide?

5 A Eventually, yes, sir.

6 Q Mr. Neville asked you about whether you were present

7 in court or not, for proceedings in connection with

8 that -- with lit igation involving Marquis, and you said,

9 yes.

10 To which litigation were you referring?

11 A The litigation of Marquis against Who's Who in U.S.

12 executives.

13 Q Your company?

14 A That's correct, sir.

15 Q You were asked by Mr. Jenks regarding whether or not

16 the government could violate your probation; do you

17 remember that?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Tell us what is your understanding as to who the

20 ultimate decision as to whether or not you violated your

21 probation?

22 A I am not an attorney, Mr. White. But my

23 understanding is that the probation department would
24 initiate that, and it would be approved by Judge Mishler.
25 Q And where is your probation officer located?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5447
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A In Long Island.

2 Q You said on cro ss-examination in response to

3 questions what you knew about the company when you were

4 making these phone calls, that you received letters from

5 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

6 A That is correct, sir.

7 Q Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1601 through

8 1606 for Identification.

9 Take a look at those, Mr. West and tell us what

10 those are.

11 (Handed to the witness.)

12 A There are six separate letters from Who's Who and its

13 related companies -- Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling, I

14 should say. Nominating me or offering me potential

15 inclusion in their directories and membership.

16 MR. WHITE: Let me provide copies to defense

17 counsel now, but the government offers 1601 through 1606.

18 (Documents handed to defense counsel.)

19 MR. WHITE: I have a copy for the Court as well,

20 your Honor.

21 (Handed to the Court.)

22 THE COURT: Any objection?

23 MR. TRABULUS: May I see the originals, please,
24 your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5448
Watstein-redirect/White


1 (Documents handed to Mr. Trabulus.)

2 MR. TRABULUS: May I have a voir dire?

3 THE COURT: Yes.

4

5 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. TRABULUS:

7 Q Mr. Watstein, on the dates of all of these letters,

8 except the first one --

9 A Pardon me, I need a copy. You have the originals.

10 Q I have the originals here. I will walk up to you to

11 show you.

12 A Thank you, sir.

13 Q Mr. West, on all but the first one of these dates you

14 were cooperating with the government; is that correct?

15 Even on the first one you were; is that correct?

16 A Yes, sir, that is correct.

17 Q So, at the time of the dates of each of these letters

18 you were cooperating; is that correct?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And when these letters came did you immediately turn

21 them over to the government, or to Mr. Biegelman or

22 Mr. Leonard?

23 A Reasonably promptly; yes.
24 Q Did you turn over the envelopes in which they came?
25 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5449
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q The envelopes would have the postmark, sir; is that

2 correct?

3 A I understand that.

4 Q You understood, did you not, that this was supposedly

5 an investigation of mail fraud; is that correct?

6 A Yes, sir, that's correct.

7 Q If there was any type of fraud that was allegedly to

8 be proven involving these letters being sent to you, it

9 would require proof that it was mailed; is that correct?

10 A I don't have a direct understanding of that, no.

11 Q Did any cards come with this?

12 A I don't have a recollection, sir, no. I assume they

13 did.

14 Q Did you turn those over to the government?

15 A I am not sure, sir.

16 Q Did Mr. Biegelman tell you that when the records of

17 Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling were seized, copies of

18 blank stationery were seized?

19 A No, he didn't, sir.

20 Q Were any of those shown to you at any point in time?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q Were any of those given to you at any point in time?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q Now, some of these are not originals, they appear to
25 be photocopies; is that correct, sir?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5450
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A Some are originals and some are photocopies? I can't

2 quite tell, sir.

3 Q Do you have th e originals of those which appear to be

4 photocopies?

5 A No, sir.

6 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

7 Objection, I believe not a proper foundation was

8 made with regard to some of the questions were responded

9 to.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 MR. WHITE: What ground, your Honor?

12 THE COURT: Insufficient foundation.

13 On what theory are you offering this?

14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, at a minimum they are

15 corporate admissions, letters from Who's Who and Sterling

16 Who's Who. Mr. West has identified them just like every

17 other witness identified they received such letters from

18 the company. And all those other letters were admitted.

19 THE COURT: Did you personally -- do you remember

20 receiving these letters, Mr. Watstein?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

22 THE COURT: Do you want to come, up counsel.

23 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
24

25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5451
Watstein-redirect/White


1 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place

2 at the sidebar.)

3 THE COURT: Why aren't they admissions by the

4 corporation?

5 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I can add another

6 ground for the objection. I guess they can be admissions

7 if they are shown as coming from the corporation.

8 THE COURT: There is a prima facie showing. This

9 witness says he received them.

10 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to add another point.

11 These were never provided to us in discovery.

12 They were never provided. This was not something which

13 was first raised on the direct where we opened the door to

14 it. I believe there was testimony by Mr. Watstein --

15 excuse me, it is not a situation where we first raised

16 this on the cross of Mr. Watstein. It was certainly

17 something which I believe was encompassed by his direct

18 examination, receipt of them, the letter from Who's Who,

19 and I think that it was elicited by the government, he was

20 shown a letter from Cathy Ross by Biegelman, and there was

21 something else to him having received letters. Nor was

22 that ever attacked by the defense to establish that he

23 hadn't received the letter. This is something that should
24 have been disclosed to us a long while ago. It was saved
25 for redirect. On that basis alone I believe it should be

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5452
Watstein-redirect/White


1 excluded.

2 MR. SCHOER: I didn't hear everything that

3 Mr. Trabulus said, but I don't believe that this was ever

4 provided to us in any discovery.

5 THE COURT: That's what Mr. Trabulus just said.

6 MR. SCHOE R: I am sorry.

7 THE COURT: What about that, Mr. White?

8 MR. WHITE: It was, your Honor. There was a

9 large volume of letters. I know that I specifically

10 included in one of my discovery letters, and I can dig it

11 out if I have to, that the government had solicitation

12 letters and mailing files that were available for

13 discovery. If you want I will go out and get the letter

14 and show you exactly what date I made it available to

15 them.

16 Not only that, but some of the letters are

17 actually referred to in the complaint of March of 1995.

18 Inspector Biegelman set forth a whole series mailings,

19 your Honor it is in the complaint.

20 THE COURT: The complaint in this case?

21 MR. WHITE: Yes.

22 THE COURT: Why are you prejudiced by not

23 specifically having been giese letters? Let's
24 assume it was mentioned in the broad, major di sclosure by
25 the government. But what prejudice is there? Where have

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5453
Watstein-redirect/White


1 you been prevented from defending yourself because they

2 were brought out on redirect examination?

3 MR. TRABULUS: Well --

4 THE COURT: They should have been brought out on

5 direct, I admit that. You are right.

6 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, the prejudice that I

7 engender on behalf of Mr. Martin specifically is that in

8 the cross-examination, my cross-examination, I attempted

9 to establish from Mr. West that he did not have copies of

10 the sales presentations, he had never seen them prior to

11 the interviews being conducted in the room; that he had

12 never seen the solicitation letters prior to those

13 interviews being conducted. In a sense he was leading my

14 client on by saying th ere was puffing and exaggerations in

15 something he had not seen before. Now the government is

16 presenting evidence that he had seen the statements

17 sometime previously.

18 Certainly, I was not aware of it previously and I

19 might not have tailored my cross-examination in that

20 manner.

21 It might be we were provided this in the

22 literally of tens of thousands documents provided. We

23 were not told it was an exhibit to be used. It was never
24 raised as an exhibit, and my cross-examination was
25 detailed and specific, and I would have prepared it in a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5454
Watstein-redirect/White


1 manner knowing that they existed.

2 THE COURT: That is it like a two-edged sword,

3 Mr. Nelson. On the one hand, the same as Tevya in Fiddler

4 on the Roof. You are right, and they are right.

5 Everybody is right. You brought it out on cross that he

6 didn't receive solicitation letters, and the government

7 comes back and shows he did.

8 MR. NELSON: Without the knowledge that the

9 government was in possession of such letters.

10 THE COURT: General constructive knowledge, not

11 actual.

12 MR. NELSON: I would not agree with that, Judge.

13 THE COURT: If he is going to show me that a

14 letter was sent to you including all of this, then you

15 have constructive knowledge.

16 MR. SCHOER: Judge, can I speak to that issue,

17 both manners which Mr. White raised.

18 I believe he did write us a general letter saying

19 here is all the material, the discovery is available to

20 you, and he pointed us to the post office into a room.

21 I don't believe that these letters were in that

22 room. My gut is that they were in the U.S. Attorney's

23 Office in a file somewhere.
24 Secondly, with respect to the complaint, the one
25 letter that is referred to in the complaint from what I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5455
Watstein-redirect/White


1 can see based on my notes, there is a letter -- the

2 complaint refers to a letter dated January 9th, 1995, to a

3 Steve Johnson. And it says that that is a fictitious

4 name.

5 MR. WHITE: Right.

6 MR. SCHOER: How do we know, how are we supposed

7 to know it has to do with Mr. West.

8 MR. TRABULUS: I went through the post office

9 facilities and I didn't see any solicitation letters

10 there.

11 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. I

12 don't think it is prejudice in the legal sense in any

13 way. And I don't believe your cross-examination at the

14 time showed any kind of weakness or exposed your client i n

15 any way. You can now come back and say I never got these

16 letters before, etcetera, etcetera. You are showing it to

17 us for the first time. When did you give the letters to

18 Mr. White? When did he talk to you about this? We were

19 never shown this before. You can bring all of that out on

20 recross-examination. I think this is substantive evidence

21 that I will not preclude because you were given general

22 notice of all these records.

23 It is true that it is a major job, but there are
24 ten of you. Some of you were extremely diligent -- you
25 are all diligent. But some were extra diligent.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5456
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Mr. Schoer probably spent days going through these records

2 if I know Mr. Schoer. Mr. Trabulus spent weeks going

3 through these records.

4 MR. NELSON: As did I, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: I don't want to leave you out,

6 Mr. Nelson. I am not aware of your propensities as I am

7 of Mr. Schoer.

8 You notice that I skipped Mr. Jenks. That's not

9 his forte, burrowing through records.

10 MR. JENKS: That's correct.

11 MR. WALLENSTEIN: You forgot me, I never looked.

12 MR. GEDULDIG: Can I request there be a limiting

13 charge on these documents, that they only apply to the

14 corporations?

15 THE COURT: Yes.

16 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

17

18 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

19 place in open court.)

20 THE COURT: I have reversed my ruling and

21 overruling the objections. I am allowing the documents in

22 evidence, with the limiting instruction that they are only

23 admissible and offered against the corporation -- the
24 corporations.
25 Let's see, one, two, three, fo ur, five -- four of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5457
Watstein-redirect/White


1 them are from Who's Who Worldwide, and two are from

2 Sterling Who's Who.

3 So that's Government's Exhibits 1601 through 1606

4 in evidence.

5 (Government's Exhibit 1601 received in evidence.)

6 (Government's Exhibit 1602 received in evidence.)

7 (Government's Exhibit 1603 received in evidence.)

8 (Government's Exhibit 1604 received in evidence.)

9 (Government's Exhibit 1605 received in evidence.)

10 (Government's Exhibit 1606 received in evidence.)

11

12 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)

13 BY MR. WHITE:

14 Q 1601 through 1606, look through the -- page through

15 and look through the letters. Were those sent to you

16 before or after you were arrested?

17 A They are all after, sir.

18 Q And when is the first one?

19 A The first one is dated December 28, 1992.

20 Q 1602, what is the date of that?

21 A March 31st, 1994.

22 Q And 1603?

23 A August 8th, 1994.
24 Q And 1604?
25 A November 2nd, 1994.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5458
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q And 1605?

2 A December 5, 1994.

3 Q And with the exception of the first one, 1601, were

4 the remaining ones after you had also pled guilty?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q So, you got these letters when you were a convicted

7 felon?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Now, look at Exhibit 1606.

10 First of all, tell us the dates of that one?

11 A January 9, 1995.

12 Q What company is sending you the letter?

13 A Sterling Who's Who.

14 Q Now, who is it addressed to?

15 A Steve Johnson.

16 Q What is the address?

17 A 355 Fern, F E R N, Drive, Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

18 Q Who lives that 355 Fern Drive?

19 A I did at that time, sir.

20 Q Can you tell us who Steve Johnson is?

21 A It is a code name I use when subscribing to

22 magazines, so when I receive renewal notices, I knew what

23 the cause was.
24 Q Does Steve Johnson exist at all?
25 A No, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5459
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q Now, you were asked last week how you got to court

2 last week. Do you remember that?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q What kind of car were you driving in?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q What kind of car was it?

7 A A limousine, sir.

8 Q And you were asked whether or not you paid for the

9 limousine. Do you remember that?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Did you?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q Tell us how it was that you were d riving in a

14 limousine?

15 A I exchanged the creation of the business plan in

16 return for limousine services.

17 Q And why was it that you took limousine services than

18 payment in money?

19 A The individual had no money to make payment.

20 Q So, he paid you in kind?

21 A That is correct, sir.

22 Q You were asked a lot of questions about the selection

23 committee that was mentioned in the letters that you sent
24 out?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5460
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q Can you explain to us whether there was really a

2 committee and how it worked?

3 A The names listed on the stationery were in the --

4 were in the large business acquaintances and friends of

5 mine. And although I believed that I asked my secretary

6 to contact these individuals and tell them they were on a

7 selection committee, the majority were not contacted by my

8 secretary, and in fact, they had no real role as a

9 practical matter in the selection, in any event.

10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further

11 questions.

12 THE COURT: Recross-examination.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.

14 THE COURT: We will recess a little later today

15 because we started later.

16 MR. TRABULUS: Sure. No problem.

17

18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

19 BY MR. TRABULUS:

20 Q Mr. West, I think you just mentioned -- withdrawn.

21 You mentioned you had a secretary; is that

22 correct?

23 A As it relates to Who's Who in U.S. Executives?
24 Q Yes.
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5461
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q And had that secretary previously worked for you at

2 the othe r company, the one also at Cutter Mill Road?

3 A I believe so.

4 Q She worked for you for a long time?

5 A I believe so.

6 Q She was a good secretary?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q You kept her for a few years; is that right?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q She would have had no reason not to contact people

11 you asked her to contact; is that right?

12 A Not by intention, no, sir.

13 Q And you mentioned that the government got the

14 proceeds of the insurance on the Mill Neck property that

15 had burned down; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And you had been under investigation for a period of

18 time concerning that time for that fire?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q You were not under investigation for a period of

21 time?

22 A Not to the best of my knowledge.

23 Q You told us earlier you were under investigation?
24 A Not to my knowledge, sir.

25 Q Were you questioned by the police about it?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5462
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, I was questioned, yes.

2 Q I believe you indicated on your direct examination

3 you had taken a lie detector test?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Not required by the investigation?

6 A I voluntarily did that.

7 Q Were you there a point in time there was a federal

8 investigation about that?

9 A Not to my knowledge.

10 Q When you talked to Inspector Biegelman you might have

11 discussed the fire?

12 A We might have discussed it, there was no

13 investigation to my knowledge.

14 Q Inspector Leonard?

15 A Not to my knowledge.

16 Q Did there seem to be less law enforcement activity

17 with regard to the fire after you started cooperating?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q And you were told -- you said you didn't benefit at

20 all by that million dollars that was paid by the insurance

21 company; is that correct?

22 A That is correct, sir.

23 Q You did benefit in the sense that it was paid to the
24 U.S. government; is that correct?
25 A You might say that philosophically, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5463
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q It is not philosophically, it was part of your

2 sentence, wasn't it?

3 A It didn't matter how much money was being turned

4 over, sir.

5 Q The government was looking for something out of you;

6 is that correct?

7 A I can't respond with a yes or no, sir.

8 Q They asked you to turn over some money in your son's

9 account from what you tell us was an inheritance; is that

10 correct?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And did you tell the government that th at money had

13 nothing to do with the crime that you committed?

14 A We made such an argument, sir.

15 Q They said we want it anyway?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q They had taken money from your son who had not done

18 anything wrong?

19 A I can't respond with a yes or no.

20 Q That money came from one of his grandparents?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Who passed away?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And they took that away from him?
25 A I can't respond fully with a yes or no.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5464
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q You helped -- allowed them to take it away?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Did you consult with your lawyers if they had the

4 power to --

5 THE COURT: You have to slow down?

6 A You are picking up ahead of steam again,

7 Mr. Trabulus.

8 Q Was there a trustee to that mo ney?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Who was that trustee?

11 A My wife.

12 Q Did she consult an attorney as to whether it was the

13 proper use of the money?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q The attorney told her she could take the money which

16 was her sons, left to the son by a grandparent and utilize

17 it to help buy your way out of jail; is that right?

18 A I can't respond with a yes or no, sir.

19 Q That book over there in front of you, it has a bunch

20 of transcripts in it?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And there were some transcripts that you were not

23 involved in?
24 A I haven't really studied the book.
25 Q Take a look in it, through it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5465
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, sir.

2 THE COURT: Were there some he was not involved

3 in?

4 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, sir.

5 THE COURT: We will take your word for it.

6 MR. TRABULUS: I want him to look through it for

7 other things, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: We will not have him sit here and

9 look through things that are so.

10 Q Trying to cut it short, you reviewed some transcripts

11 before testifying; is that correct?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Between the date of your last testimony and today

14 have you reviewed any transcripts?

15 A No.

16 Q You did review transcripts before coming up here; is

17 that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Now, the transcripts that you reviewed were of tapes

20 you yourself were involved in?

21 A That is correct, sir.

22 Q And some of those were only partial transcripts?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q You reviewed complete transcripts of each of the 61?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COU RT REPORTER

5466
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q When White asked you, did he not some questions

2 earlier -- actually, last week, to the effect of despite

3 all the facts that all defense counsel asked you

4 concerning the bad things you did, it doesn't change what

5 is on the tapes; do you recall that?

6 A I recall the question, yes, sir.

7 Q It was Mr. White who first asked you in this

8 proceeding concerning various crimes that you pled guilty

9 to and the actors that you did; is that correct?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And you met with Mr. White before you first

12 testified; is that correct?

13 A That is correct, sir.

14 Q And did you tell him in that conversation that no

15 matter what I might have done, it doesn't change what is

16 on the tapes?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Did he tell you that at that point?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Did he ask you why he was even going to be asking you

21 relating to these crimes about another company, not even

22 Who's Who, when you had the tapes?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q You never discussed with him why he chose to bring
25 that out; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5467
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q Now, when Mr. White began his redirect examination,

3 the last day you testified on a day earlier today, he

4 asked you about questions I had asked you, questions where

5 I had asked you whether or not at the time you did certain

6 things, you did them with intent to defraud; do you recall

7 that?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And do you recall being asked these questions and

10 giving these answers in response to questions to

11 Mr. White, beginning at page 5260 -- withdrawn, forget it.

12 You said basically you didn't have the technical

13 understanding at the time these things were happening, you

14 didn't have a technical understanding that the things were

15 illegal; is that correct?

16 A In substance, yes.

17 Q When I asked you with respect to intent to defraud, I

18 didn't ask about a legal technicality?

19 A No, not accurate what you are saying.

20 Q Didn't I ask you if you were intending to defraud the

21 legal --

22 A I thought it was a technical legal question.

23 Q That's what you understood?
24 A That's what I understood your phrase means.
25 Q When I asked you whether or not you would have picked

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5468
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 out law enforcement people, and picked out government

2 workers and practicing attorneys if you had been acting

3 with intent to defraud them, you thought I was just

4 questioning you concerning a legal technicality, whether

5 or not you technically knew at the time what intent to

6 defraud was; is that correct?

7 A That was my understanding of the question, sir.

8 Q And you told Mr. White on redirect, didn't you, that

9 at the time you did these things, and when I say these

10 things I mean when you first began your businesses, not

11 when you first started operating it the way you did, but

12 when you first planned it, first planned to send letters

13 to people advising them they were nominated, and you said

14 you were intending to publish a directory and do things

15 right and do things in good faith, you said when you first

16 did that you told Mr. White that you believed it was

17 misleading?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And dishonest?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And wrong?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Now it is your testimony that you selected a group of
24 law enforcement people to do something misleading to?
25 A I can't respond yes or no to that question.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5469
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q It is your testimony that you picked a group of law

2 enforcement people to do something which you knew was

3 dishonest; is that correct?

4 A I can't respond with a yes or no to that question,

5 sir.

6 Q And it is your testimony that you picked a group of

7 law enforcement people to do something that you knew at

8 that time was wrong; is that your testimony?

9 A I can't respond with a yes more no, sir.

10 Q Didn't you feel when you said nomination to tease

11 people was no more than puffing or hype and not illegal?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q Isn't it a fact if you felt it w as wrong, dishonest,

14 misleading, illegal, intent to defraud, the last people

15 you would have selected to do this to would have been

16 attorneys, law enforcement people, and government people,

17 yes or no, sir?

18 A I cannot respond to a yes or no to that question,

19 sir.

20 Q You told me, did you not, when I was cross-examining

21 you before, when you start out you had good objectives; do

22 you recall that?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you said you were doing this at that time, you
25 felt you were doing it in good faith; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5470
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A Time frame is 1987, 1988, yes, sir.

2 Q And that's before you say you started failing to

3 deliver, and failing to supply the things which you had

4 promised the people; is that correct?

5 A In a time sequence, your question is correct, sir.

6 Q Now, before we start to get to the non-delivery, to

7 that business, let me ask you, in terms of what the tapes

8 say, in one of the tapes you pose as your father-in-law,

9 Mr. Weinman?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And Mr. Weinman was an accountant; is that right?

12 A On the tape, sir.

13 Q And he is the only one on the tape --

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q He is the only one that you paid for?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q He is the only one of these 61 nonexistent people

18 that you posed as, that you know as you sit here today

19 would have been actually accepted into Who's Who

20 Worldwide; is that correct?

21 A I cannot respond to that question with a yes or no.

22 Q In each of the other 61's that you did, you never

23 took it beyond the point that -- at which you hung up on
24 the salesperson, or the salesperson h ung up on you -- I
25 don't mean an unfriendly sense of hanging up -- but you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5471
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 left it I have to either get approval from my wife, or I

2 have to get my boss to authorize the use of a company

3 credit card, you never took it beyond that except for

4 Mr. Weinman; is that correct?

5 A No, not accurate.

6 Q There was one other one where you used a nonexistent

7 credit card?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Besides those two you never took it beyond that?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And with the non-existent credit card and once they

12 checked out the credit card to find out it was

13 nonexistent, it wouldn't have gone to any level of

14 non-review with respect to that?

15 A I cannot comment on that.

16 THE COURT: You better slow down, Mr. Trabulus.

17 Q When you used the nonexistent credit card you didn't

18 become a member?

19 A I have no knowledge of that.

20 Q No one got back to you and said you were not a member

21 of who you said you were?

22 A They previously made me a member.

23 Q With Mr. Weinman?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q They previously made you a member with the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5472
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 nonexistent credit card?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q What did you pose as to that one?

4 A I don't have a recollection, sir.

5 Q So that one, if one with Mr. Weinman and that's one,

6 were the two, and with Mr. Weinman you posed as an

7 accountant; is that correct?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And did you discuss with Mr. Biegelman in doing this

10 that this would be some kind of test to see who would and

11 who would not get i nto Who's Who?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q Did he explain to you that he was looking to do some

14 kind of test?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Did you have any conception as you were doing this as

17 to what the purpose of it was?

18 A I had a general conception, yes, sir.

19 Q And did you sense that one of the purposes was to see

20 how selective Who's Who Worldwide would be? To see who

21 could get in and who couldn't?

22 A I believe it is an accurate statement.

23 Q It is one of the purposes?
24 A It was a topic, I can't say a purpose.
25 Q Was it another purpose to see if Who's Who Worldwide

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5473
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 would in fact give refunds to people?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Did it ever occur to you on behalf of Mr. Weinman, or

4 posing as Mr. Weinman, posing as a refund as to what would

5 happen?

6 A Not to my imagination.

7 Q You have a pretty good imagination?

8 A No.

9 Q And you came up with 61 names and were able to talk

10 as if you were those people easily?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q --

13 THE COURT: You will have to slow down,

14 Mr. Trabulus.

15 Q Did anyone suggest to you if you tried that and got a

16 refund it might hurt the government's case?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Now, did it occur to you that every time you called

19 up posing as one of these people, you were telling the

20 salespeople that you spoke to that you had already

21 received a card; is that correct?

22 A Not in each and every instance, sir, but the bulk of

23 the instances, sir.
24 Q Were there ever any instances in which you didn't
25 tell them that you either had received a card, or you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5474
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 previously spoke to someone else there?

2 A It might have been one or two, I don't have a clear

3 recollection.

4 Q You called up cold?

5 A I don't recall. There might be a different

6 circumstance other than the receiving of the card. I have

7 to check all 61 transcripts to review that.

8 Q I am not asking you to do that.

9 With regard to those cases in which you said you

10 previously had spoken to someone else, or that you had

11 received a card, and sent it back and hadn't heard

12 anything, which would be virtually all of the 61, or maybe

13 all of the 61, did it occur to you that you were in effect

14 telling the salesperson you spoke to that you had already

15 undergone a certain level of selection, at least at

16 whatever level there was to reach the card?

17 A Absolu tely not.

18 Q It didn't occur to you?

19 A No, sir, a mailing list, not a selection.

20 Q Did it ever occur to you whether or not you felt that

21 way, you didn't necessarily know what the salespeople you

22 were talking to knew about; is that correct?

23 A I can't speak for what was in their mind, sir.
24 Q Did it occur to you that you might be misleading the
25 salespeople into thinking you had already passed a certain

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5475
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 level of selection when you spoke to them?

2 A Absolutely not.

3 Q It didn't occur to you?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Now, did it ever occur to you to call up and say to

6 them not that I had received a card or I had spoken to

7 somebody before, or something like this: Mr. Salesperson,

8 my neighbor across the street the street, whose job is no

9 better than mine and doesn't make any more than money that

10 I do, he got a solicitation from Who's Who Worldwide and

11 is bragging all about it and by, gosh, I should be in

12 that, too, did you ever think of that?

13 A No.

14 Q Never did?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Would it be a fair test with the sales persons to see

17 how far it would have taken you?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q It didn't occur to you, did it?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q Now, where is the book, the red one?

22 One thing we have not done is shown to the jury

23 this book. We will read to them portions of it, except on
24 a very limited basis. And with the Court's permission,
25 since you were shown page 34 by Mr. White, and you pointed

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5476
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 to Larry Flint, I would like you to go down from left to

2 right, to read at least the names of each of the people on

3 this book, and also their titles. You don't have to read

4 the rest of it.

5 A I don't know if I can read the titles they are so

6 small. I will take a look at it.

7 No, I can't read the type. It is too small to

8 read it.

9 Q Let's read it together.

10 A Certainly.

11 Q Seymour Fleisher, chairman of the board --

12 THE COURT: You have to spell all the names. If

13 you are going to go through all the names, Mr. Trabulus --

14 or photostat the page and send it around.

15 MR. TRABULUS: That's what we will do at the

16 break. I think that might be better.

17 Q Now, one of the tests --

18 THE COURT: How much more do you have?

19 MR. TRABULUS: A fair amount more.

20 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a

21 ten-minute recess.

22 Please do n ot discuss the case, and keep an open

23 mind.
24 Please recess yourselves.
25 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5477
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 courtroom.)

2

3 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

4

5 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

6 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

7 courtroom.)

8 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

9 jury.

10 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.

11 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.

12 Your Honor, I will offer Q-1, which is a

13 photocopy of page 34 of Defendant's Exhibit Q. I have

14 shown it to Mr. White.

15 THE COURT: Any objection?

16 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit Queen-1, Queen-1,

18 in evidence.

19 (Defendant's Exhibit Q-1 received in evidence.)

20 MR. TRABULUS: May I publish it to the jury?

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

23 to the jury.)
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5478
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

2 BY MR. TRABULUS:

3 Q You had trouble reading the entry on page 34?

4 A Yes.

5 Q You were questioned by Mr. White with respect to

6 Larry Flint?

7 A Yes, I could see the name.

8 Q It is not a different typeface than the rest of it,

9 sir, is it?

10 A I can read the name, sir.

11 Q The last time you were here Mr. Dunn, the gentleman

12 in the corner there, asked you a bunch of questions

13 relating to the complaint that had been filed against you;

14 do you recall that?

15 A In general, sir.

16 Q You had reviewed the complaint to a certain extent,

17 had you not, in your discussions with the attorney about

18 pleading guilty?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you understood when there was someone listed in

21 the complaint as a CI, confidential informant, that it

22 represented a potential witness if you went to trial; do

23 you understand that, did you understand those discussions?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You understood when Mr. Dunn said CI such and such

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5479
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 according to the complaint said so and so, that meant if

2 you went to trial you could expect that the person who, if

3 you went to trial, would be up there saying the things

4 that you said; is that correct?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And that, of course, entered into your decision to

7 plead guilty; is that correct?

8 A Partially.

9 Q So, I will not ask you everything Mr. Dunn asked

10 about, but do you recall in your complaint of a CI given

11 the number 7, who had tape recorded a conversation with

12 you?

13 A I vaguely recall that, sir.

14 Q Do you recall in this complaint, CI-7, who tape

15 recorded a conversation, in which you were telling people

16 in an office meeting that the production of plaques for

17 customers started within twenty-four hours, and thus when

18 someone who called up and asked for a refund or

19 cancellation, that's it is too late, the plaque had

20 already been made; do you remember that?

21 A Is that a question?

22 Q Yes.

23 A Do I remember the statement of the CI?
24 Q Do you remember hearing that?
25 A I remember it being read to me last week here, yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5480
Watstein-recross/Trabulu s


1 Q When you were talking to your lawyer about whether or

2 not you should plead guilty or go to trial, did you

3 understand that if you went to trial there could very well

4 be a witness in here with a tape recording saying that I

5 heard, and here it is, Mr. Watstein, telling me or other

6 people, that they should tell customers that your plaque

7 had already been made, although it hadn't been, therefore

8 you can't get a cancellation, did you understand that?

9 A In a general sense.

10 Q That's what your trial would have been like?

11 A If I had one, yes, sir.

12 Q Now, you were asked I believe about a -- Mr. Dunn

13 asked you about a Mr. Moskowitz, Lee Moskowitz; is that

14 correct?

15 A That's right, sir.

16 Q This is the man who ran the credit card through on

17 the same customer multiple times?

18 A I can't answer that, sir.

19 Q Is that the man who did that as far as you understand

20 it?

21 A On one instance he did do that, yes, sir.

22 Q Now, Mr. Dunn asked you about some CI's, according to

23 the complaint, saying that Mr. Moskowitz openly
24 acknowledged charging customer credit cards multiple
25 times, and then it went on to say in the complaint, when

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5481
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 you learned that Mr. Moskowitz was not terminated, instead

2 he was later terminated because his sales were high, do

3 you remember being told about that?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q You said the facts were right but the sequence was

6 wrong; is that right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q You are saying it was after he was promoted, is that

9 what you meant when you said that?

10 A He previously had a promotion prior to that, yes,

11 sir.

12 Q He kept on working until July 1991?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q That's when you say you voluntarily shut the business

15 down?

16 A Yes. That was August, sir, yes.

17 Q And he was kept on there until the end; is that

18 right?

19 A Mister -- that's correct.

20 Q And you didn't fire him when you found out he had

21 done this; is that correct?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q You should have?
24 A I don't think so.
25 Q You said your operation was clean after May of 1990?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5482
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A He never did it again and apologized for us. We

2 reversed the transaction and penalized him. I don't think

3 I should have fired him for making one mistake.

4 Q He said according to the complaint multiple times he

5 did that?

6 A Is multiple two, si r.

7 Q I don't know what it means to me?

8 A It does to me.

9 (Reporter confers with the Court.)

10 THE COURT: Is that the correct question?

11 MR. TRABULUS: It is hard to tell.

12 THE COURT: Is that the correct answer?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: We are up-to-date now, let's slow

15 down.

16 MR. TRABULUS: I will slow down.

17 MR. SCHOER: If I may, I believe Mr. Trabulus

18 asked a question as to whether multiple meant one or

19 whether he had previously said one, and now he was saying

20 two. I believe that's what he means.

21 MR. TRABULUS: I thought it was before.

22 MR. SCHOER: Was it, I am sorry.

23 THE COURT: All right.
24 Q Did you also read in the complaint that there was
25 another CI, number 24, and according to the complaint, in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

548 3
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 talking about CI-24, after the same part that they talked

2 about that, the complaint says the Nassau County Fire

3 Department advises that the origin of this fire, referring

4 to the fire at Mill Neck was highly suspicious, and that

5 it appears clear that it was started by incendiary means.

6 Do you recall that was in the complaint, too?

7 A It is absolutely accurate, yes, sir.

8 Q When you were talking to your attorney about deciding

9 whether or not you should plead guilty or go to trial, did

10 the subject come up with your attorney whether or not the

11 government was looking to try to possibly prove that you

12 were somehow involved in a suspicious arson for insurance?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Did you ask your attorney why the government had put

15 that into the complaint if it really had nothing to do

16 with you?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q And did it occur to you that you might be under

19 suspicion for arson at that point in time from the

20 government's perspective?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q Did it occur to you if you fought it and went to

23 trial there might have been, besides the various things
24 that you pled guilty to, an additional investigation of a
25 possible arson, and that you might have been subject to an

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5484
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 additional charge relating to that?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Do you know whether your attorney in speaking to

4 Inspector Biegelman or Leonard, Who's Who ever he was

5 speaking to and whatever the plea negotiations were, asked

6 if anything there would be dropped if you agreed to plead

7 guilty to the things you pled guilty to?

8 A I have no knowledge of that, sir.

9 Q Do you know whether there was any discussion at that

10 point, when you were first talking to them about pleading

11 guilty about turning over to the government the proceeds

12 of any insurance claim at that point?

13 A Would you rephrase your question?

14 Q Yes, sure.

15 When did the things of turning over the proceeds

16 of the insurance claim, the million dollars you put in

17 for, when did it first come to your attention that it was

18 something you would have to do as part of the plea?

19 A I believe it was July of 1992, I don't have an exact

20 recollection, sir.

21 Q That would be right around the time you pled guilty,

22 sir?

23 A The guilty plea was March, I believe, of 1993.
24 Q I am sorry, it was right around the time your
25 cooperation agreement was entered into?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5485
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And it was right around the time the deal was struck?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And it was after the complaint was mentioned that the

5 suspicious fire was struck?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And after that you didn't hear anything more about

8 the suspicion?

9 A After I passed the polygraph I heard nothing further

10 about it, sir.

11 Q You were aware that the polygraph is not 100

12 percent -- is not something recognized in court as

13 evidence?

14 A I am not a polygraph expert, sir.

15 Q You are aware that people passed polygraphs when

16 guilty and failed when they were guilty?

17 A I have no direct knowledge, I am sure it is correct.

18 Q Are you aware that people take certain medications

19 and can pass a polygraph no matter what?

20 A No, sir. I believe that's accurate.

21 Q Now, in going through the complaint did you discuss

22 with your attorney the thing about one of the other CI's,

23 9121, I am kind of going in reverse order, going down?
24 A Looking around?
25 Q No, going backwards, 21, we were on 27, before.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5486
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 And did you remember discussing with your

2 attorney that this CI 21 had known you for over 21 years,

3 and that he told, or she told, I don't know if it was a

4 man or woman, the postal inspectors, had not received

5 ordered merchandise from this catalogue, the Who's Who

6 gift personal services catalogue, because your company

7 didn't order for the company what was ordered wasn't in

8 stock, and you or your company didn't pay the vendors, the

9 people who would supply the merchandise as ordeFF0000; did

10 you recall that?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And that was true, of course, was it not?

13 A Partially correct, yes, sir.

14 Q It doesn't say that that was partially the case in

15 the complaint, right?

16 A It is the allegations of the CI, sir.

17 Q So, you are saying the CI was partially making that

18 up?

19 A Partially not accurate, sir.

20 Q And it is your testimony that -- withdrawn.

21 You understood if you had gone to trial in your

22 case, we would have seen, or you would have seen from that

23 seat, somebody who is now in your seat, getting up there
24 and saying people wouldn't get what they ordered out of
25 this catalogue; they wouldn't get it because he, being

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5487
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Watstein, you, wouldn't pay for it; it wasn't in stock,

2 and you didn't order it for them? Did you understand

3 that?

4 A I don't understand your question, sir.

5 Q Did you understand that when you had gone to trial

6 and you were deciding whether to plead guilty or not, did

7 you understand that when you had gone to trial, you would

8 have likely have seen a witness up there testifying

9 against you, not about some other business that they were

10 running, just as you are doing with Mr. Gordon, but

11 testifying about your business, and saying that in your

12 business when people ordered merchandise they didn't get

13 it because you didn't keep it in stock, you wouldn't pay

14 the vendors who were supposed to supply it; did you

15 understand that? And you didn't even order it for the

16 customers who were supposed to be ordering it? Did you

17 understand that was happening to the customers at your

18 trial?

19 A I --

20 MR. WHITE: Object ion, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 Q I think in response to some questions by Mr. Dunn you

23 claimed you were only aware of a couple of instances in
24 which there were multiple invoices for the same customer
25 who had already paid, in other words, double-billing; were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5488
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 you aware of that?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Were you aware in your complaint, there was a CI-20,

4 who when he spoke to you about it, was told by you that

5 you didn't want to hear about it; did you --

6 A Inaccurate statement.

7 Q That CI was mistaken?

8 A That is correct, sir.

9 Q And you didn't tell the CI you didn't want to hear

10 about it?

11 A Correct, I did not say that.

12 Q Did you tell him you wanted to hear about it so you

13 could ferret it out and ma ke sure that everybody was

14 billed just once?

15 A There was no discussion one way or another, sir.

16 Q The CI was making it up?

17 A Probably, sir, or inaccurate.

18 Q And you understand if you had gone to trial you

19 probably would have seen that person testify that Steve

20 Watstein, Steve West, told me I didn't want to hear about

21 it if somebody is double-billing; is that right?

22 MR. WHITE: Objection.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q Your wife, Sherri, was nominally the president of the
25 company?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5489
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q She didn't really work there, did she?

3 A No, sir, she did not.

4 Q You were asked how much money you got out of the

5 company over a period of several years?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q She was paid a much hi gher salary than you; is that

8 correct?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And for not doing anything; is that right?

11 A That's what I pled guilty to, sir, yes, sir.

12 Q And that was really your money, right?

13 A In a beneficial sense, yes, sir.

14 Q Did you go over with your attorneys in your

15 discussion as to whether or not you should plead guilty,

16 the portions of the complaint which dealt with giving

17 refunds or credits on Amex or Visa or Master Card charges,

18 even after the merchant accounts were closed?

19 A No, we had no such discussions, sir.

20 Q Were you aware in the complaint there were

21 confidential informants who were saying that you

22 authorized credits against merchants -- credit card

23 accounts which were closed?
24 A Yes, sir. There was a balance due as to that.
25 That's correct, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5490
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Were you aware that one of the confidential

2 informants said that you had requested that credits be

3 issued in the name of Marquis Who's Who from your

4 company? Do you recall that?

5 A No, sir, I don't believe it said that. It talked

6 about a check being cashed for Marquis, if I recall

7 correctly.

8 Q Bear with me.

9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

10 proceedings.)

11 Q While I am looking for it, you understood, did you

12 not, that there were several confidential informants,

13 talking about the time you made a decision to plead

14 guilty, who were prepared to testify that there would be a

15 hundred new customer complaints a day that they were aware

16 of?

17 A I am not sure several, but I am sure it was a

18 statement made by one of the CI's.

19 Q Indeed, it was two who would say a hundred, or 80 to

20 a hundred?

21 A I am not sure if there was one or two.

22 Q If you had gone to trial there would have been

23 evidence of that that could have been presented? Were you
24 aware of that?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5491
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Now, you testified on redirect that you used the name

2 Steven Johnson as a -- for magazine subscriptions; is that

3 correct?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q That's correct?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And that is when you gave a -- got a renewal notice

8 you would know where it came from?

9 A As well as receiving mailing pieces --

10 Q You would --

11 A May I answer the question, sir?

12 Q Please.

13 A When I received mailing pieces addressed to Steve

14 Johnson I would know it is a direct mail piece, and not

15 correspondence.

16 Q And it would help you keep track of things?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Nothing fraudulent in using that name for that

19 purposes?

20 A In magazine subscriptions, yes, sir.

21 Q In terms of businesses using names not the real names

22 of people, there could be legitimate business purposes for

23 that?
24 A I have seen companies doing that in the telemarketing
25 business, yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5492
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q You could have a company, for example, sending out

2 bills for mail, and past due bills, and the 30 day bills

3 were signed Cathy Jones, and the 60 day bills Mary Smith,

4 and the 90 day bills, Kathleen Johnson, and when the

5 response came back it said dear Ms. Johnson, or Smith or

6 Jones, the person would kn ow the account was thirty days,

7 60 days or 90 days overdue; you understood that?

8 A Not a normal practice, but it is a practice, sir.

9 Q Nothing fraudulent with that, right, sir?

10 A I can't comment on that.

11 Q Your company in using fictitious names picked names

12 that suggested that the people were very famous, came from

13 famous and prestigious families; is that correct?

14 A Not in every case.

15 Q Harlan Carnegie was one of those?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And Thornton Rockefeller?

18 A Yes, sir, certainly.

19 Q And they were shown, were they not, as being members

20 of the committee that supposedly selected people?

21 A Not on the committee letterhead.

22 Q But they appeared on correspondence. Is that

23 correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And I think one of the people on this committee

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COU RT REPORTER

5493
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 letterhead was a former Assistant Attorney General; is

2 that correct?

3 A Yes, sir, my friend, yes, sir.

4 Q And did he receive any remuneration for that?

5 A No.

6 Q Did he know that he was -- that his name was

7 appearing on the letterhead?

8 A Absolutely, yes, sir.

9 Q This is somebody who used to work for the Justice

10 Department?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And was he involved in criminal prosecutions?

13 A I don't have first-hand knowledge, but I would assume

14 so.

15 Q And he understood that he was appearing on the

16 letterhead as being involved in a selection process; is

17 that correct?

18 A In an honorific sense, yes.

19 Q He knew he was not involved in any selection process?

20 A I can't comment what he knew.

21 Q Was he involved in a selection process?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Unless he had delusions he wouldn't associate with
24 any particular selection process with his name being on
25 the letterhead; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5494
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A He saw himself on an honorary committee.

2 Q He never expressed any concern to you, that there was

3 anything fraudulent in his name being used that way?

4 A Not until he was contacted by the post office, no,

5 sir.

6 Q And until somebody from the post office told him

7 there was a problem, until then he on his own never

8 expressed any concern about that; is that right?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q And after that his concern was that his name was now

11 affiliated with your company?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Not that it had been on the letterhead as such?

14 A I think both.

15 Q You indicated you had attended court proceedings in

16 the litigation that Reed had begun against your company;

17 is that right?

18 A To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.

19 Q In connection with those court proceedings there were

20 also depositions taken?

21 A Subsequent, yes, sir.

22 Q Subsequent to the beginning of the court proceeding?

23 A I can't respond with a yes or no. There were two
24 separate proceedings, sir.
25 Q Did you attend the deposition besides your own if

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5495
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 there was --

2 A Besides my own, yes, sir.

3 Q Withdrawn.

4 I believe you testified earlier you didn't

5 testify at a deposition?

6 A At a deposition.

7 Q Did you testify at your own deposition in that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q You did?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And was Debra Horowitz an employee of yours?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Did she testify at the deposition?

14 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.

15 Q In deciding whether or not to plead guilty, did you

16 review that portion of the complaint, in which it

17 summarized portions of her testimony?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q Were you aware or did your lawyer mention to you that

20 that you were the only one who authorized customer credits

21 and your company issued credit slips the name of Who's Who

22 in America, the Marquis publication?

23 A Who's Who of Executives in America, is the corporate
24 name.
25 Q And she testified specific that your company issued

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5496
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 credit slips the name of Marquis publication? Were you

2 aware of t hat?

3 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.

4 Q I will show you the complaint, page 73.

5 (Handed to the witness.)

6 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection that in fact

7 when you were determining as to whether to plead guilty,

8 you were made aware that Ms. Horowitz was -- testified

9 that credit slips were issued by your company and in the

10 name of the Marquis Who's Who company?

11 A It is a typographical error.

12 Q It is --

13 A Or inaccurate.

14 Q Marquis is not typographical error. It is a name?

15 A She made no such testimony.

16 Q So the government's complaint against you was wrong?

17 A In that one minor portion, yes.

18 Q If indeed such a thing was happening, you would have

19 been charging in effect Marquis for the refunds that your

20 company should have been making, if indeed it happened?

21 A I don't quite understa nd your question, sir.

22 Q Withdrawn.

23 You were asked about posing as a deli owner?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Do you know whether there are any deli owners in any

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5497
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 of the books?

2 A I have not examined the books, sir.

3 Q When you were posing and doing all this to see who

4 might get in and might not, with Mr. Biegelman, did you

5 mention to him some of the sales pitches you heard or

6 sales presentations you heard had CD-ROMs spoken about?

7 A We had no such discussions about CD-ROMs.

8 Q You certainly heard things about CD-ROMs; is that

9 correct?

10 A Absolutely.

11 Q If you wanted to know if there were deli owners in

12 the book, do you think you would have had Mr. Weinman, the

13 one who became a deli owner, order a CD-ROM?

14 A I had no interest as to whether there were deli

15 owners or not.

16 Q Just as to whether or not you could insinuate a deli

17 owner in the book; is that correct?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q You didn't do that because a deli owner never

20 presented a deli owner -- credit card into the company?

21 A If it was accepted he did not do that.

22 Q In speaking to Biegelman or Leonard or any of the

23 others, did you ever discuss if it might be possible to
24 get a credit card company to assist in the investigation
25 by authorizing a credit card or cards in fictitious names?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5498
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A No, sir.

2 Q Did you know that it was something that is often

3 done?

4 A I had no knowledge of that, sir.

5 Q Did you discuss with them that it might be desirable

6 to create more fictitious members to see what would happen

7 in terms of refunds to see if they actually got in?

8 A I don't understand your question.

9 Q Did you discuss with them or they with you if it

10 might be desirable if it might be better to actually

11 consummate the greater number of members you did other

12 than Mr. Weinman and that other one?

13 A Absolutely no discussions about that.

14 Q Did you ask the government if they had a copy of the

15 CD-ROM?

16 A I provided it.

17 Q You provided a copy of the CD-ROM?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Where did you get it?

20 A Mr. Weinman ordered it to the best of my knowledge.

21 Q He ordered a CD-ROM?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Did you take the CD-ROM and see if any deli owners
24 are in it?
25 A Not my instructions, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5499
W atstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Do you know whether the government did that?

2 A I have no idea. I am not privy to the government.

3 Q Rather than simply trying to find out who might, I

4 mean of perhaps deceiving salespeople into thinking they

5 already had undergone a certain amount of acceptance might

6 pass by the sales people to find out instead who might

7 have made it into the directory, did you respond to -- did

8 you try that?

9 A I disagree with your premise, might have, so I can't

10 respond to your question, sir.

11 Q Let's take a look at the CD-ROM and then we might not

12 have too many more questions.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, for the record, I am

14 booting the computer with Defendant's Exhibit S, which is

15 the CD-ROM in it.

16 THE COURT: Very well.

17 Q There is a logo there, CD Answer Dataware.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Did you ever see that before?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q Or anything like that?

22 A No, not like it.

23 Q We have a copyright notice, Who's Who Executive
24 Club. Ever see that copyright notice before?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5500
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Now you have a screen with space where you can type

2 stuff in. Have you ever seen that before?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You have?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q On the CD-ROM?

7 A In a database, sir.

8 Q Something completely different?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Now, next to type of business -- I will do something

11 different here.

12 We have a complex search, and I will do a full

13 text search. And I will type in the word delicatessen

14 here.

15 If you want to do it afterward with the word

16 deli, you can try it.

17 I am pressing the little signal here that has a

18 sigma.

19 What number shows up, one, number one?

20 A Yes. One deli.

21 Q One deli.

22 Siegfried Meyer --

23 THE COURT: You have to slow down and spell the
24 names.
25 MR. TRABULUS: S I E G F R I E D, K period Meyer,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5501
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 M E Y E R, chief executive officer of Siegfried's

2 Delicatessen, Inc., Salt Lake City.

3 A Uh-huh.

4 Q That's the one?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And it says he is in the food business?

7 A It seems accurate.

8 Q Major product of service, European import sausages,

9 yes?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And type of organization, manufacturing,

12 distributing, wholesale and retail, right?

13 A That's what it says, sir.

14 Q Marketing area, what does it say?

15 A Western USA.

16 Q Not Salt Lake City, western USA?

17 A That's what it says, sir.

18 Q It doesn't sound like a little one deli?

19 A I can't say, sir.

20 Q This does not sound like a deli whose owner, chief

21 executive officer, should not necessarily be in a Who's

22 Who? You can't tell?

23 A I can't respond with a yes or no.
24 Q If I tell you that's the one deli in the whole book,
25 do you have any reason to believe that any deli owners who

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5502
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 shouldn't have been in Who's Who were actually accepted?

2 A I have no knowledge other than the one I was accepted

3 in.

4 Q Were you accepted, sir?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q Did you pay?

7 A I was accepted. That's your question, sir.

8 Q Do you know whether in fac t after it gets out of the

9 hands of a salesperson whether or not there was any

10 subsequent review?

11 A I don't have any knowledge of the --

12 Q You know Mr. Weinman, the accountant passed by any

13 subsequent review?

14 A No, sir, I don't know that.

15 Q He became has member; is that right?

16 A They charged his credit card, sir.

17 Q They charged his credit card?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Do you know if your credit card would have been

20 charged if you would have submitted it when you posed as a

21 deli owner?

22 A Highest probability, yes.

23 Q Do you know one way or another as a fact?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q You have no knowledge?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5503
Watstein-recross/Trabulus


1 A Just my own guess, yes, sir.

2 Q In fact, the very method you used of investigating

3 this organization was calculated to give you no knowledge

4 as to whether or not you would actually get in when you

5 posed as these people; is that right?

6 A Absolutely inaccurate, sir.

7 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 THE COURT: Anyone else?

10

11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. NELSON:

13 Q Good afternoon, Mr. West.

14 A Good afternoon.

15 Q Mr. West, do you recall you were shown the 1993-1994

16 registry of Who's Who Global Edition, which included the

17 name of Larry Flint; is that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Now, when you interviewed Frank Martin, that was on

20 January 20th, 1993; is that correct?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q He indicated he had left the company on November --

23 in late November, 1992; is that correct?
24 A I think it was earlier than that, sir.
25 Q It was som etime in 1992; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5504
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And this registry is for people who enter the

3 registry in late 1993 and 1994; is that correct?

4 A I don't believe so, sir.

5 Q Well, it is for people who -- this registry was

6 published after Mr. Martin had left the company; is that

7 correct?

8 A It was published, yes, that's correct.

9 Q And Larry Flint is somebody whom you would

10 acknowledge as being a rather wealthy gentleman; is that

11 it?

12 A I have no first-hand knowledge. I would assume so,

13 sir.

14 Q I didn't see the movie, but my wife told me about the

15 movie, but she told me he was pretty wealthy; is that

16 correct?

17 A I am sure that's what your wife told you.

18 Q Thank you.

19 Would you agree, and I would like to show you the

20 entry with respect to Mr. Flint.

21 Now, can you read that entry for Larry Flint?

22 (Handed to the witness.)

23 A I can't read the small type.
24 Q You were able to hear -- read it when the government
25 shows it to you? Do you have different vision when the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5505
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 government shows it to you and the defense shows it to

2 you?

3 A My vision is the same.

4 Q Let me read it --

5 THE COURT: Mr. Nelson is picking up speed.

6 MR. NELSON: Withdrawn. And I will read it

7 slowly, the entry.

8 Q Am I correct it says Larry Flint, F L I N T,

9 publisher, L F P, Inc., 9171 Wilshire Boulevard, Beverly

10 Hills, California, business, publishing, P/S magazines,

11 organization, manufacturer, distributor, distribution

12 international, experience, management marketing, F B,

13 Harold Robins, and I guess that's his favorite book. F M,

14 favorite magazine, Forbes. Favorite vacation spot, Cayman

15 Islands;.

16 Is that the entry for Mr. Flint?

17 A I believe you are reading it accurate.

18 Q Am I correct that you had difficulty reading

19 everything on the page but the jury had an opportunity to

20 do so, but by 1993, 1994, Mr. Flint was indeed a

21 businessman engaged in an international businesses

22 publication magazine?

23 A I believe it is accurate, sir.
24 Q And would I be correct in stating that he was the
25 type of individual who would be renowned or maybe have

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5506
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 notoriety throughout the world as being somebody who was

2 an international businessman and publisher?

3 A I believe notoriety is an appropriate phrase.

4 Q He was known throughout the world; is that correct?

5 A Substantially, sir.

6 Q I believe in 1993 he had been injured by having been

7 shot; is that correct?

8 A Yes, sir, he was shot, yes.

9 Q He subsequently won a lawsuit that went to the United

10 States Supreme Court defending and championing the First

11 Amendment rights and privileges of people in this country;

12 is that correct?

13 A I have no first-hand knowledge of that, sir.

14 Q My wife told me that, I didn't see the movie.

15 Would I be correct in stating, sir, that

16 Mr. Flint was indeed the publisher and owner of the kind

17 of magazine that had international distribution?

18 A Distribution, yes, sir.

19 Q Now, I believe you were asked by Mr. White the

20 question of whether or not Frank Martin apparently knew

21 you were arr ested during the course of your interview on

22 January 20th, 1993, and yet, he still wanted to come to

23 work for your company; do you recall being asked that
24 question on redirect examination?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5507
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Q Am I correct that you told Mr. Martin during the

2 course of the interview that you learned your lesson as a

3 result of the fact that you were arrested, and you

4 intended to operate a fully legitimate business at this

5 time?

6 A No, sir, you are not correct.

7 Q Okay.

8 Am I correct that you told Mr. Martin, or at

9 least implied to Mr. Martin, that you wanted to know what

10 was wrong with other businesses, so that you could be

11 completely legitimate?

12 A No, sir, I didn't say that.

13 Q Did you ever say that to anybody e lse during any

14 other interview that you conducted?

15 A I don't have a clear recollection of that, sir.

16 Q Let me refresh your recollection.

17 A Thank you.

18 MR. NELSON: I would like to play a tape

19 recording provided by the U.S. government, on December

20 8th, 1992.

21 Q Do you remember you interviewed people from Who's Who

22 Worldwide for job interviews on December 8th, 1992?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: Is that tape in evidence?
25 MR. NELSON: At this time I would like to offer

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5508
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 in evidence and I will mark for identification, and I

2 guess it will be Defendant's Exhibit A -- I will make it

3 BA at this point.

4 MR. SCHOER: No. Those are already pre-marked.

5 (Mr. Nelson confers with Mr. Trabulus.)

6 MR. JENKS: Try anot her letter. You can't use

7 BA.

8 MR. NELSON: I will try CA at this time.

9 THE COURT: A transcript or just a tape?

10 MR. NELSON: It is just a tape. I do not have a

11 transcript.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 Do you have the date on that tape?

14 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor, December 8th,

15 1992. It is marked by tape number 3, side A, one of two

16 tapes.

17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, until I know what

18 Mr. Nelson wants to play, and why it is being offered, the

19 government has an objection.

20 THE COURT: I don't have a transcript of the

21 tape.

22 MR. WHITE: Nor do I.

23 THE COURT: I will have to hear it.
24 MR. NELSON: I will move along with other
25 portions, and during the lunch recess we will have a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5509
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 sidebar and discuss this.

2 MR. WHITE: We might be able to work it out. I

3 don't know what Mr. Nelson is referring to.

4 THE COURT: Very well. Try to conclude the other

5 portions of your recross-examination.

6 Q Do you recall on December 8th, 1992 you interviewed

7 at least three other former employees of Who's Who

8 Worldwide?

9 A I recall interviews in general, but not specifically

10 three, sir.

11 Q All right.

12 Do you recall you interviewed a number of people

13 that day?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Okay.

16 And you recorded the interviews of all of those

17 individuals; is that correct?

18 A That is correct, sir.

19 Q And that was under the supervision of Inspector

20 Leonard at that time?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And after you made those recordings on December the

23 8th, did you provide the tape recordings that were made

24 that day to Inspector Leonard?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5510
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Q And that was prior to the interviews that were later

2 conducted on January 20th, 1993 of Mr. Martin; is that

3 correct?

4 A Mr. Martin and others, yes, sir.

5 Q Okay.

6 So, you had the opportunity, as did Inspector

7 Leonard, to listen to the recordings of the people made on

8 December 8th; is that correct?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Did you listen to any of those recordings?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q Do you know if Inspector Leonard listened to any of

13 those recordings?

14 A No first-hand knowledge, sir.

15 Q Did you discuss the contents of those recordings with

16 him during the six week period of time from December 8th

17 to January 20th, 1992, when you were a cooperating witness

18 for the government?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q You never reviewed the exculpatory portions of the

21 transcripts -- withdrawn, the tapes, as it related to

22 former employees of Who's Who Worldwide; is that what you

23 are telling us, sir?
24 A That's correct, sir.
25 Q Now, do you recall being asked by the government

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5511
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 about certain portions of the transcript, which the

2 January 20th, 1993 transcript on redirect examination

3 earlier today?

4 A You are referring to the one with Frank Martin, sir?

5 Q Yes.

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And specifically, you recall that Mr. White went

8 through with you the litany of problems, as Mr. Martin

9 related them to be, as they existed with respect to Who's

10 Who Worldwide?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q An d I believe one of those problems was the lack of

13 nominations; is that correct?

14 A Among other ones, yes, sir.

15 Q As relating to nominations, you later became aware

16 that Who's Who Worldwide, indeed, by November of 1994, by

17 the time that Frank Martin returned to the company

18 solicited and acquired nominations from existing members

19 of Who's Who?

20 A I became aware of that statement at this trial here,

21 sir.

22 Q Well, isn't it a fact that you became aware of that

23 at a prior period of time?
24 A Not to the best of my recollection, sir.
25 Q I believe previously the government introduced on

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5512
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 redirect examination a number of different letters that

2 you received in the mail; is that correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q I would like to show you Exhibit 1605, dated December

5 5th, 1994.

6 (Handed to the witness.)

7 Q Did you receive that letter, sir?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Could you read the first paragraph of that letter,

10 sir.

11 A Yes, sir.

12 We recently received submissions from qualified

13 executives to be included in the gold book edition of the

14 Who's Who Registry, many of whom have already been

15 approved for inclusion.

16 Q Now, could you read the PS at the very bottom.

17 A Candidates are nominated by one or more of the

18 established members or by the office of public affairs.

19 Q Now, you received this letter in the mail from Who's

20 Who Worldwide some time, I guess, shortly after December

21 5th, 1994; is that correct?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And so, you became aware prior to your testimony here
24 at trial that by the time that Frank Martin had re turned
25 to the company in November of 1994, Who's Who Worldwide

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5513
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 was -- had in place a procedure, and was actually

2 soliciting people from nominations that came from other

3 established members; is that right, sir?

4 A No, sir. It is not accurate at all.

5 Q You just didn't believe the letter; is that right?

6 A Absolutely. Did not believe the letter at all. You

7 are correct, sir.

8 Q Now, another problem that you claimed existed, was

9 the non-existence of the credit card -- the CD-ROM in

10 1993; is that correct?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q Mr. Martin advised you that there was no interactive

13 software in 1993, but that it was being worked on; is that

14 correct?

15 A That's what he stated, yes, sir.

16 Q And I believe you just testified on examination from

17 Mr. Trabulus, that you actually ordered and acquired the

18 CD-ROM in 1994, I believe it was; is that correct?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Okay.

21 And that problem was resolved, I guess?

22 A I have no first-hand knowledge, sir, as to whether it

23 worked or not.
24 Q Did your relative receive the Tribute Magazine from
25 Who's Who Worldwide?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5514
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 A Just one copy, sir.

2 Q And in the Tribute Magazine it reflected the fact

3 that Who's Who Worldwide was now providing an MBNA Master

4 Card to members if they elected to acquire one; is that

5 correct?

6 A I saw that a few days ago, yes.

7 Q And so, the other problem Mr. Martin reflected, he

8 believed existed at the time he left the company, had

9 likewise been resolved by th e time he returned to Who's

10 Who Worldwide; is that correct?

11 A The other is the proper terminology, sir?

12 Q He told you about three. Nominations, credit card,

13 interactive software.

14 There was now a nominations procedure in effect;

15 there was a CD-ROM; and there was a credit card being

16 offeFF0000; is that right?

17 A He discussed other problems as well, sir.

18 Q Those three, three for three, correct?

19 A If you repeat your phraseology, I will respond to

20 your questions, sir.

21 Q Of the three problems that Mr. Martin told you in his

22 perception existed with respect to the presentation in

23 1993 when you interviewed him, by the time he returned to
24 the company in 1994, there existed in place a procedure as
25 set forth in this letter that you yourself received for

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

55 15
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 members to nominate other members; is that correct?

2 A I believe the procedure existed per your -- per that

3 conversation, sir, yes.

4 Q And certainly based on the existence of such a

5 letter, and in fact in Tribute Magazine it asks for

6 members to nominate other members, it would have been

7 reasonable for Mr. Martin to assume upon his return to the

8 company that in fact such a procedure existed; is that

9 correct?

10 A I can't respond for Mr. Martin's thinking, but I

11 believe it might be reasonable, yes.

12 Q Likewise, since the magazine reflected there was a

13 credit card and people were acquiring credit cards, that

14 problem which he claimed existed in 1993 was resolved; is

15 that correct?

16 A It was eventually resolved, yes.

17 Q As relating to interactive software, certainly your

18 actual receip t of such a CD-ROM, reflects that that

19 problem was likewise resolved?

20 A Not exactly correct, sir.

21 Q Did you receive it?

22 A Received it, couldn't get it to work.

23 Q Did you receive it?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Was it provided?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5516
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q The fact that you couldn't get it to work, certainly

3 doesn't mean that's Mr. Trabulus hasn't been able to play

4 it for the jury over the last six weeks and shown them it

5 works?

6 A It depends on which version he is playing, sir.

7 Q Did you have a chance to see it working in the

8 courtroom?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Now, another question that you asked -- withdrawn --

11 that you were asked by Mr. White on redirect examination

12 related to the portion of the transcript, where you

13 discussed the percentage of the people accepted, and where

14 you state to Mr. Martin, so 99 percent of the people are

15 accepted; is that right? Do you recall that portion of

16 the transcript?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Now, during that transcript, and during that tape

19 recording, there is not any point in time during the

20 recording -- at least that I saw -- and the transcript,

21 where you asked Mr. Martin, are you aware how the mailing

22 lists are acquired? Am I right?

23 A Yes, I believe you are correct, sir.
24 Q All right.
25 And there is nowhere in that transcript that you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5517
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 ask Mr. Martin, are you aware whether or not Who's Who

2 Worldwide uses what is known in the industry as segmented

3 mailing lists? You don't ask him about that, do you?

4 A That is correct, sir.

5 Q And you don't ask Mr. Martin during the course of the

6 recording whether or not there is some form of a weeding

7 out process that takes place when the lead cards come back

8 before they are given to the salespeople themselves, do

9 you?

10 A That is correct.

11 Q And you don't ask Mr. Martin whether or not the sales

12 managers themselves go through those cards before

13 distribution to the sales staff to see whether or not

14 people, just based upon their position, might be

15 ineligible for inclusions? You don't ask him about that

16 either; is that correct?

17 A That is correct.

18 Q And finally, you don't ask Mr. Martin whether or not

19 after a sale is made there is some form of final review

20 that takes place by the administration department; is that

21 right?

22 A That is correct.

23 Q And th ose were questions that you didn't feel --
24 withdrawn.
25 Those were questions that you did not ask him

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5518
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 during the course of the interviews; is that correct?

2 A That is correct.

3 Q And are you aware, sir, as you sit here today, that

4 each one of those procedures in fact existed and were in

5 place upon Mr. Martin's return in 1994, and in fact,

6 existed at the time he left the company in 1992? Were you

7 aware of that?

8 A I have no awareness of that, sir.

9 Q Because you weren't working in the company, you

10 didn't have that information; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And now, am I also correct that you were asked a

13 question by Mr. White, when he went through these various

14 responses that Mr. Martin gave to you -- I think it was

15 something along the lines, there was nothing that was

16 forcing Mr. Martin to stay in this room; isn't that

17 right? I believe that was the question that Mr. White

18 asked you, or words to that effect. Do you recall being

19 asked that question?

20 A In substance, yes, sir.

21 Q And this was a job interview, right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And Mr. Martin was unemployed that day; isn't that
24 correct?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5519
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Q And you were offering him a job between 50 and

2 $75,000; isn't that correct?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q Well, do you recall having stated during the course

5 of the transcript that this position you were looking at

6 him to occupy would be a position that would pay somewhere

7 between 50 and $75,000, with the perquisites?

8 A He was a candidate, I was not offering him a job.

9 Q He was a candidate among other people at that time?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q You made it clear to him other people were being

12 interviewed?

13 A Certainly that was implied.

14 Q Certainly, Mr. Martin had a reason for sitting there

15 in the room talking to you, because he was looking to get

16 a job; isn't that right?

17 A Yes, sir, certainly.

18 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, with respect to the

19 remainder of my cross examination it bears on the tapes.

20 I know it is five minutes before the lunch recess, perhaps

21 we will be able to recess first?

22 MR. DUNN: If you want I have four or five

23 questions, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: No. We will take care of this now.
25 Ladies and gentlemen, we will recess until 1:30.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5520
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Please keep an open mind, and see you at 1:30.

2 Have a nice lunch.

3 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

4 courtroom.)

5 THE COURT: You may step out, Mr. Watstein, thank

6 you.

7 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the

8 witness stand.)

9 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, if I might make a

10 suggestion, and what might be the appropriate thing to do,

11 and it is only a suggestion that I will alert Mr. White of

12 the portion of the tape I wish to play. I have them on a

13 counter, we can go through them. Then if we have an

14 objection, possibly we can meet ten minutes before we can

15 reconvene, if he has an objection, we can meet then and

16 discuss it from there.

17 THE COURT: We will recess until 25 after 1:00.

18 Meanwhile you can go over that.

19 MR. NELSON: Thank you, sir.

20 (Luncheon Recess.)

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5521

1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2

3 (The following takes place in the absence of the

4 jury.)

5 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Nelson.

6 MR. NELSON: During the luncheon recess I had an

7 opportunity to play for the government each of the three

8 excerpts I would like to have the opportunity to play

9 during the trial.

10 I would like to note for the record that the

11 three tapes are tapes provided to us by the government on

12 Friday. These were the recordings of Mr. West as part of

13 the investigations apparently into Oxford Who's Who, and

14 were in the Oxford Who's Who file, and were retrieved by

15 the government in response for my request for 3500

16 material last Tuesday at the conclusion of the direct

17 examination of Mr. West.

18 For that reason I do apologize to the Court and

19 to the government. I did have the opportunity over the --

20 I didn't have the opportunity over the weekend to have the

21 transcripts prepared of those excerpts, it was

22 approximately 15 hours of recordings. To listen was

23 voluminous enough to find the portions I wish to play.
24 The portions I wish to play I believe are prior
25 inconsistent statements made by Mr. West in response to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5522

1 the question I asked him which led to my playing of the

2 tape. I asked him, did you advise other people, other

3 than Mr. Martin, during the course of the job interviews,

4 that you wanted there to be a completely legitimate

5 company here, and, therefore, you wanted to know what the

6 problems were in the prior com pany that they worked in in

7 order to make sure that that was not the problem in the

8 new company that he was setting up.

9 Mr. West said he did not make such a

10 representation.

11 The very first statement on the recording I

12 wished to play is Mr. West stating, I am starting a new

13 company. I want -- I want to know the problems here,

14 because I want this to be a completely legitimate company.

15 THE COURT: You say he denied saying that?

16 MR. NELSON: That's my recollection, your Honor.

17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government's

18 objection -- I think we have to start with the premise

19 that this is hearsay.

20 What Mr. Nelson wants to get in is not just

21 Mr. West's question. He wants to get in an answer by this

22 unnamed employee --

23 THE COURT: What is the answer?
24 MR. WHITE: He wants to play an extended portion
25 of it where an employee says something like, he is not --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5523

1 hold on.

2 There are three separate tapes, or portions of

3 tapes --

4 THE COURT: Mr. Nelson is entitled to show a

5 prior inconsistent statement. If he has that prior

6 inconsistent statement, we will let that part get in. I

7 am not interested in the answer or anything else in the

8 conversation.

9 MR. WHITE: That's my point.

10 THE COURT: That's it.

11 MR. WHITE: If he just asks Mr. West the

12 question, that shows the inconsistency, the answer is

13 irrelevant.

14 MR. NELSON: I am also seeking to elicit by

15 playing the three excerpts Mr. West's state of mind at the

16 time he interviewed my client, Frank Martin.

17 It is something I couldn't do on my

18 cross-examination because I didn't have the tapes at that

19 point in time.

20 THE COURT: What is the state of mind?

21 MR. NELSON: He was trying to elicit information

22 which was inculpatory as to the target corporation.

23 THE COURT: Your request is denied.
24 What else do you want to show?
25 If you have an inconsistent statement, show it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5524

1 I will not allow you to show his state of mind in another

2 conversation with another person.

3 Anything else?

4 MR. NELSON: No, your Honor.

5 MR. WHITE: Should the procedure be that

6 Mr. Nelson -- not that it be admitted in evidence, but

7 that he plays it for Mr. West and not the jury?

8 THE COURT: If he is a technician, and

9 technically acutely able and expert enough to do that, I

10 will let him play the one statement. Yes, he wants the

11 jury to he ar it and Mr. West -- what is his real name?

12 MR. NELSON: Watstein.

13 THE COURT: In Watstein's own words; is that

14 correct?

15 MR. NELSON: Yes.

16 MR. WHITE: Not the answers?

17 THE COURT: Not the answers.

18 MR. NELSON: I am not a technician, but I am

19 certainly going to be able to press the button quickly

20 enough.

21 THE COURT: That's the word I am looking for,

22 technician.

23 MR. NELSON: I was on the audiovisual squad in
24 school.
25 THE COURT: You are certainly not in the category

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5525

1 of Mr. Trabulus.

2 MR. NELSON: No, sir, CD-ROM is not for me.

3 THE COURT: Anything else?

4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, these tapes contain

5 exculpatory material on them, contains material which

6 should have been disclosed a long time ago to u s. It

7 contains material we should have been allowed to introduce

8 on the Franks issue. If you want me to summarize what it

9 is --

10 THE COURT: Not now I don't. I will give you an

11 opportunity at 5:00 o'clock to summarize it.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

13 THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury.

14 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge.

15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

16 proceedings.)

17 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

18 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

19 courtroom.)

20 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

21 jury,.

22 You may proceed, Mr. Nelson.

23 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5526

1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,

2 called as a witness, having been previously

3 duly sworn, was examined and testified a s

4 follows:

5

6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

7 BY MR. NELSON:

8 Q Good afternoon.

9 A Good afternoon.

10 Q One of the questions I asked you during the morning

11 session is: Am I correct that during your December 8th,

12 1992 interviews that were conducted at the Marriott

13 total -- the Garden City Hotel, I apologize.

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Did you advise the people who were there for

16 interviews that you previously had been arrested, and that

17 you wished to now have a legitimate business, and as a

18 result of that you wanted to find out if there were any

19 problems in the presentation or the manner in which the

20 prior employers of these prospective employees operated so

21 as you would eliminate that potential problem? Did you

22 tell them that during the course of the interview?

23 A As it relates to the December interviews, it may very
24 well be true. I don't have a serious recollection of it,
25 though.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5527
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Q I would like to play a brief selection of the tape

2 which reflects that, if you would put on your headphones,

3 if you will.

4 (Tape is played.)

5 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection that you

6 were told, at least this one individual, that you had told

7 this individual during the course of December the 8th -- I

8 am sorry, did you hear what I was saying?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Does that refresh your recollection that on December

11 the 8th, you had at least told this one individual that

12 you wanted to be allowed, what problems there were in the

13 presentation, because you wanted to be sure that your

14 business, which was not going to be a real business, was a

15 legitimate business?

16 A Essentially accurate.

17 Q In essence that's what Mr. Martin understood when he

18 came to the interview with you; isn't that correct?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Didn't you make that known to him at the conclusion

21 of the transcript when you indicated to him at page 22 of

22 the transcript, I learned my lesson in the past? You were

23 alluding to the fact that you had been previously
24 arrested, and you now wanted to operate a legitimate
25 business; is that right, sir?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5528
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 A No, sir, not totally accurate.

2 Q You weren't alluding to the fact that you learned the

3 lesson in the past?

4 A I learned many lessons in the past.

5 Q And you told other people you wanted to run a

6 legitimate business, but Mr. Martin, it is n ot something

7 you wanted to tell him?

8 A Not accurate, sir. I can't answer it with a yes or

9 no.

10 Q Now, am I correct that you interviewed at least four

11 or five different people who had been employees of Who's

12 Who Worldwide on December 8th, and January 20th,

13 respectively in 1992 and '93?

14 A Yes, sir, that's accurate.

15 Q And there were recordings made of each and every one

16 of those interviews; is that correct?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And those tapes were provided to Inspector Leonard

19 who was supervising your cooperation with the government;

20 is that correct?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Am I correct in July of 1993, individuals who had

23 been employees and principals of Oxford Who's Who were
24 arrested?
25 A I think an individual was arrested.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

552 9
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Q In July of 1993; is that correct?

2 A Yes, sir, a singular individual.

3 Q And you had made recordings of Oxford Who's Who

4 employees in in both December and January of '92 and '93

5 as well?

6 A I am not sure if there were both, or if they were

7 former and current employees.

8 Q And there weren't any employees of Who's Who

9 Worldwide of whom you had recorded the interviews of at

10 least four or five people arrested in July of 1993; is

11 that correct?

12 A That is correct.

13 Q And there were not any individuals who had been in

14 the employee of Who's Who Worldwide who were arrested in

15 July of 1994 either; is that correct?

16 A That's correct to the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.

17 Q I believe you testified that you were eventually

18 sentenced in July of 1995; is that right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Okay.

21 And your cooperation was ongoing from 1992 to

22 1995; is that right?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And we went through all the different investigations
25 that you had participated in; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5530
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And am I correct that in late February, early March,

3 1995, Judge Mishler was insistent on you being sentenced

4 because the case had been outstanding for such a lengthy

5 period of time?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Do you recall that the government, and at that time

8 it would have been Assistant United States Attorney Seth

9 Marvin, had to write a letter to Judge Mishler requesting,

10 despite the judge's unambiguously expressed intent to go

11 forward with your sentence on March 31st, 1995, making a

12 request of the Cour t that your sentence be adjourned?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Okay.

15 Am I correct that at that time Mr. Marvin

16 submitted an affidavit under seal to Judge Mishler in

17 order to adjourn your sentence?

18 A I had no knowledge of that, sir.

19 Q Well, did you receive a copy of the letter which was

20 sent by the Assistant United States Attorney to Judge

21 Mishler seeking an adjournment of your sentence?

22 A I don't believe so. My attorney may have, sir.

23 Q Your attorney at that time was Lawrence J. Rice?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Roger Bernstein?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5531
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And I would like to show you at this time a letter

3 which I will mark as Defendant's Exhibit CC?

4 THE COURT: On the previous exhibit you offered

5 Defendant's Exhibit CA, Charl ey Abel, the tape recording,

6 we are only putting together that portion; is that

7 correct?

8 MR. NELSON: Yes.

9 THE COURT: Any objection to that?

10 MR. WHITE: The portion played, no.

11 MR. NELSON: I am noting for the record this is

12 Exhibit CD, and the reason is I have other tapes marked CB

13 and CC, and we discussed it out of the presence of the

14 jury.

15 THE COURT: First of all, Defendant's Exhibit CA,

16 Charley Abel, a portion of it that was played, is in

17 evidence.

18 (Defendant's Exhibit CA received in evidence.)

19 THE COURT: This is CD, Charley dog?

20 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor.

21 (Mr. Nelson confers with Mr. White.)

22 Q I would like to show you a letter dated March 8th,

23 1995, addressed to the Honorable Jacob Mishler from the
24 United States Attorney's Office, and signed by Seth L.
25 Marvin, Assistant Uni ted States Attorney.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5532
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 (Handed to the witness.)

2 Q Had you ever seen this letter before, sir?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q And are you aware, sir, that Mr. Marvin was in fact

5 the Assistant United States Attorney who was supervising

6 the investigations that you were a cooperate witness, as a

7 part of?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And am I correct that Mr. Marvin was the individual

10 who eventually wrote the letter to Judge Mishler pursuant

11 to United States sentencing guidelines, Section 5K 1.1,

12 setting forth the nature and extent of your cooperation?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And am I correct that by this letter Mr. Marvin asks

15 of the Court to grant for the reasons set forth in the

16 attached affidavit, however, we submit that in the

17 interests of justice, f avor the finite adjournment of

18 these proceedings?

19 THE COURT: Is this in evidence, now?

20 MR. WHITE: No, it is not, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Why are you reading it then?

22 MR. NELSON: I will withdraw the question, your

23 Honor.
24 Q Were you advised of the fact that Mr. Marvin
25 contacted Judge Mishler requesting an adjournment of your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5533
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 sentence?

2 A Could you repeat the question, sir?

3 Q Were you advised of the fact that the Assistant

4 United States Attorney, Mr. Marvin, requested an

5 adjournment of your sentence on March 8th, 1995?

6 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

7 Q Did you become aware of the fact that your sentence

8 was adjourned from March 31st, 1995, to a later date?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And did yo u become aware of the fact that the

11 assistants -- the Assistant United States Attorney

12 submitted a letter to the Judge asking for an adjournment

13 of your sentence for purposes of completing a particular

14 outstanding investigation, which was then taking place?

15 A I was not aware of that letter, sir, no.

16 Q And were you aware of the fact that in that letter

17 the Assistant United States Attorney asked the judge to

18 adjourn the sentence so that the full nature and extent of

19 your cooperation could be known to the judge prior to you

20 being sentenced?

21 A No, I was not aware of that, sir.

22 Q Now, the investigation you were speaking about would

23 have been this investigation; isn't that right?
24 A I believe so, sir.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5534
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Y ou had been cooperating with the government with

2 December 8th, 1992, at least with respect to Who's Who

3 Worldwide when you made these recordings; is that right?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And am I correct that as you testified, nobody was

6 arrested in '93, and nobody was arrested in '94; is that

7 right?

8 A To the best of my knowledge, that's correct, sir.

9 Q And I believe you previously testified that there

10 came a time during the late spring or early summer of 1994

11 that you apprised Inspector Biegelman that in fact the

12 Reed investigation had concluded favorably on behalf of

13 Reed, and unfavorably against Who's Who Worldwide; is that

14 correct?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And within 60 days of that you then became a

17 cooperating witness in a dormant investigation which then

18 preceded forward; is that correct?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Isn't i t a fact that the next activity that you had

21 commenced in August of 1995, when you made -- excuse me,

22 August of 1994, when you started making recordings and

23 posing as a customer, calling up Who's Who Worldwide?
24 A You are referring to the investigation of Who's Who
25 Worldwide only?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5535
Watstein-recross/Nelson


1 Q That's correct.

2 A Yes, sir, that's correct.

3 Q And between April of 1993, when you made your last

4 telephone call into Who's Who Worldwide and August of

5 1994, you personally did not participate in investigations

6 of Who's Who Worldwide; isn't that correct?

7 A Other than submitting letters to Inspector Biegelman

8 that I received in my home, I had no other active

9 investigation to the best of my recollection -- active

10 participation to the best of my reco llection.

11 MR. NELSON: Thank you, no further questions.

12 MR. JENKS: I have a few questions, your Honor.

13

14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. JENKS:

16 Q Mr. Watstein, you recall Mr. White showing you

17 Government's Exhibit 1601 through 1606 this morning?

18 A Yes.

19 Q On his redirect examination?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q All right.

22 Taking a look first at Government's Exhibit 1605,

23 this is addressed to you in Fort Lauderdale; is that
24 correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5536
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 Q And on that letter it says Mr. Steven West; is that

2 correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Besides the name West, besides the name Watstein, and

5 besides the name Johnson, and I am not talking about the

6 61 names you assumed when you made these tapes, hav e you

7 ever used any other names in your life?

8 A Not to the best of my recollection. It is possible,

9 but not to the best of my recollection.

10 Q It is possible you may have used another name besides

11 Johnson, West or Watstein?

12 A It is possible, on the best of my recollection.

13 Q Who is West Adams Christopher?

14 A That was a corporation, West Adams Christopher was a

15 corporation.

16 Q And was it formed in Florida or formed in New York?

17 A My recollection is that it was formed in New York in

18 either 1990 or 1991.

19 Q And what did that corporation do?

20 A It was engaged in doing consulting.

21 Q Consulting and direct mail marketing?

22 A In a broad array of things, that was one of them,

23 yes, sir.
24 Q How many corporations, all told, would you say you
25 had in 1990, 1991?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5537
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 A Three or four.

2 Q And you were the president of those corporations, or

3 someone else was the president of those corporations; is

4 that correct?

5 A In some cases I was the president, in other cases

6 other people were.

7 Q Taking a look first at 1605, it is addressed to you

8 at a Fort Lauderdale address; is that correct?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q It says, if you wish to be nominated for inclusion in

11 the registry, we do need you to update the information

12 about your current career position and business expertise;

13 is that correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q And it also says at the bottom here, there is a PS,

16 candidates are nominated by one or more of the established

17 members or by the office of public affairs; is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And tha t's what you had received on Who's Who

21 Worldwide stationery dated December 5th, 1994; is that

22 correct?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And it doesn't say you were nominated by another
25 member?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5538
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q It says if you wish to be nominated in this letter?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Taking a look at Government's Exhibit 1602 in

5 evidence, it is a letter also to you; am I correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And that is -- the date of that letter is March 31st,

8 1994?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And it is on Who's Who Worldwide stationery?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Does it say also if you wish to be nominated for

13 inclusion in the registry, we need to update the

14 information pertaining to your current career position,

15 business expertise and other da ta on the enclosed form.

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Taking a look at Government's Exhibit 1603 -- before

18 we get to 1603, 1602 at the bottom indicates there is no

19 cost or obligation for qualified individuals to be listed

20 in Who's Who Registry; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q All right.

23 Take a look at 1603 in evidence, and that's dated
24 August of 1994; is that correct?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5539
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 Q And that is a letter that you received on Who's Who

2 Worldwide stationery; is that correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And it has the same language. If you wish to be

5 nominated for inclusion in the registry; is that correct?

6 A That portion of the language is identical, sir, yes.

7 Q As in the first two exhibits I showed you, if you

8 wish to be nominated?

9 A That paragraph, yes, sir.

10 Q And once again, this says there is no cost or

11 obligation; am I correct?

12 A In a different word, different words, yes, sir.

13 Q All right.

14 Let's take a look at 1604.

15 This is also addressed to you; is that correct?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And this is November of 1994?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And it says, you were recently nominated by our

20 editors for inclusion in Sterling Who's Who directory,

21 executive edition; is that correct? That's the first

22 paragraph?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q All right.
25 And it says by our editors, you were nominated by

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5540
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 our editors; is that correct?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Speaking -- you are really good with words.

4 Did you ever look the word "nominated" up in the

5 dictionary?

6 A A long time ago.

7 Q Tell me what it says, if you recall?

8 A I don't have a recollection.

9 Q If I told you that when you look for the words

10 "nominated" it means selected, chosen or appointed, would

11 that refresh your recollection?

12 A I believe that's one of the many definitions.

13 Q In the dictionary, correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Select or chosen, right? In other words, "nominated"

16 is not a word that came down from the heavens someplace,

17 is it?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q This says you were recently nominated by our editors;

20 is that correct?

21 A That's what it says.

22 Q So, if a synonym of nominated was "selected" you

23 could read this to mean that you were recently selected by
24 our editors, or recently chosen by our editors, or you
25 were recently appoi nted by our editors, they are all

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5541
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 interchangeable, right?

2 A In that context, sir.

3 Q And you would agree with me that the words "nominate"

4 at least for the purposes of this, of these letters could

5 have numerate meetings?

6 A Many definitions, yes.

7 Q It is not a word that just came down from the

8 heavens, like I said, from god, is that right?

9 A It doesn't have a single definition, if that's what

10 you mean.

11 Q Okay.

12 Let's take a look at a Sterling Who's Who,

13 Government's Exhibit 1606, dated January 9th, 1995. Am I

14 correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And this is to Steve Johnson?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you told us Steve Johnson was a name you used to

21 get magazine s ubscriptions; is that right?

22 A To purchase magazine subscriptions, yes.

23 Q And you were recently nominated for possible
24 inclusion in Sterling Who's Who. Nominations are
25 submitted by one or more of the established members and by

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5542
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 the editors; that's in that letter; is that right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q The language, and by the editors, is in 1606 which

4 Mr. White showed you?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And finally 1601, the earlier letter, it is addressed

7 to you, Mr. S. West; is that correct?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And Government's Exhibit 1601 in evidence, says that

10 you were recently nominated for possible inclusion in the

11 Who's Who Registry of global business leaders; is that

12 correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And it doesn't say you w ere nominated by another

15 member, does it?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q It doesn't mention anything about being nominated by

18 someone who knew you; am I correct?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Mr. West, I want to direct your attention -- you

21 recall Mr. White had done two series of redirect

22 examination, one last week and one this morning; is that

23 right?
24 A Very briefly last week, yes.
25 Q Well, very briefly last week, he asked you, with what

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5543
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 instructions you had received from Biegelman and Leonard;

2 is that correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And I believe you said that your two instructions

5 were to be honest and accurate; is that what you said?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And you also said that you had received credit,

8 regardless of the outco me?

9 A From Biegelman, yes.

10 Q You say it is directly from Biegelman; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And did you not understand your role when you made

13 these tapes was to get as much incriminating evidence on

14 these tapes as you possibly could?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q You are telling me if you got nothing on these 61

17 tapes, you would have gotten the same credit than if you

18 had gotten people to say things by your language into

19 trying to trick them into something?

20 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

21 Q Well, you have no trouble answering any of the

22 government's questions, do you? I am not speaking Spanish

23 to you, am I?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection.
25 A Sir, if you like --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5544
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 Q You told us you turned over all the tapes; is that

3 correct?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Every single tape you made, correct?

6 A Without exception.

7 Q You turned them over because you had to turn them

8 over; is that right?

9 A Certainly.

10 Q You tell me. If the government found out you

11 withheld a tape that you made, what would they have done

12 to your agreement?

13 A They might have violated my agreement.

14 Q They would have torn it up, right?

15 A Possibly.

16 Q The agreement actually says that you agree to furnish

17 to the office all documents and other material relevant to

18 the investigation, correct?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you know that it also says in that agreement that

21 if you don't do that, and you violated any provision of

22 the agreement, the government can tear it up and you will

23 not be released fr om your plea of guilty?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q So that's the real reason you turned over all the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5545
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 tapes; is that correct?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q You knew if Biegelman had found out you didn't give

4 him one tape that this agreement was in jeopardy; is that

5 correct?

6 A I think it is an accurate statement.

7 Q All right.

8 Now, Mr. White got up here and he showed you last

9 week 3500-22-I, the 5K letter you received from the

10 government; do you recall that?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And do you recall Mr. White saying that the

13 government advised the Court of your long term criminal

14 conduct; is that correct?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Do you recall Mr. White saying that the government

17 didn't recommend any sentence to the Court? Do yo u recall

18 that?

19 A Yes, sir, that is correct.

20 Q Isn't it a fact that the government didn't recommend

21 in the sentence that you should be incarcerated?

22 A A correct statement.

23 Q Nobody stood up from the United States government and
24 said that for all the crimes you committed you should go
25 to jail, did they?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5546
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 A An accurate statement.

2 Q It is almost accurate to say at the sentence the

3 government is acting as your lawyer, pretty much as they

4 are acting as your lawyer here today, isn't it?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Q At the sentence, you were relying on the government;

8 is that correct?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You were not?

11 A They were a contributing fact. I wasn't relying on

12 the government.

13 Q They were on your team and you were on their team; is

14 that correct?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Did they ask Judge Mishler to sentence you to any

17 period of incarceration behind bars?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q Do you think -- let me ask you this question: Do you

20 think you should have received a sentence of

21 incarcerations for the crimes that you committed?

22 A No, sir.

23 MR. WHITE: Objection.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Strike out the answer.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5547
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 Q Let's talk about some questions Mr. White asked you

2 today, and I want to first talk to you briefly about the

3 issues of the refunds.

4 You said you never refused in total to give

5 refunds; is that right?

6 A In substance I said that, right.

7 Q Di d you -- withdrawn.

8 Did you instruct employees of yours to tell

9 people looking for refunds that your company was on

10 strike?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q And that the people were on strike?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Did you see that in the complaint, the language?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Is it your testimony that that testimony is not true?

17 A Absolutely not true.

18 Q You had nothing to do with telling people who were

19 looking for refunds that your company was on strike?

20 A Absolutely nothing.

21 Q Were you aware that employees of yours were telling

22 people looking for refunds that your company was on

23 strike?
24 A Not until I saw that in the complaint, sir.
25 Q And that is something as far as you are concerned is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5548
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 not true?

2 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.

3 Q But it is in the complaint; is that right?

4 A It certainly is in the complaint.

5 Q Are you aware that your employees were telling people

6 looking for refunds that your company was on vacation?

7 A I never heard that one, sir.

8 Q Is that in the complaint?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And is that --

11 A No, sir.

12 Q And that's something foreign to you also that you

13 have no knowledge of?

14 A As opposed to those two finite points, yes, sir.

15 Q All right.

16 With respect to this false statement, you created

17 an entity of American Sales Marketing Institute; is that

18 right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q When you created that corporation, sir, you intended

21 to make a profit with that business, am I right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q But nevertheless, although you intended to make a

24 profit with the business, you filed a not for profit
25 statement; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5549
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.

2 Q Well, you said, when Mr. White was questioning you,

3 that you didn't complete all of the backup paperwork; is

4 that correct?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q But you did file an application to have that

7 corporation recognized as a not for profit corporation; is

8 that correct?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q That was not the truth when you formed the

11 corporation, right?

12 A It was not totally the truth, no, sir.

13 Q So, you know, when you pled guilty to that, you were

14 in fact guilty of doing that, right?

15 A Absolutely.

16 Q You didn't plead guilty to something you didn't do,

17 right?

18 A You are correct, sir.

19 Q In fact, in any of these counts, in the information

20 that is in there, you didn't plead guilty to anything you

21 didn't do, right?

22 A An accurate statement, sir.

23 Q Eough there may be no language in there
24 concerning the intentional non-delivery of products, you
25 understood when you took a plea to mail fraud and

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5550
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 conspiracy to commit mail fraud, it encompassed what was

2 in the complaint, correct?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q You didn't understand that?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q That the information that was drafted and put before

7 the judge in the case was in fact a summary or a broken

8 down document from the information contained in the

9 complaint?

10 A That was not my understanding, sir.

11 Q Did it say in t he complaint that you intentionally

12 non-delivered products to customers?

13 A I believe it said that in the complaint.

14 Q Is that not true also?

15 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

16 Q It was not a hundred percent accurate?

17 A That's correct, sir.

18 Q Let's talk about the issue of health insurance.

19 Mr. White raised this once again on redirect.

20 You did have an employee who was in the hospital,

21 who was denied payment for his hospitalization; is that

22 correct?

23 A He stated that, sir, yes.
24 Q Do you have any information to state otherwise?
25 A I have no information one way or another, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5551
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 Q Did you represent to employees of yours that they in

2 fact had health insurance when they in fact didn't?

3 A No, sir .

4 Q This employee didn't have it?

5 A As I indicated it was cancelled, sir.

6 Q For nonpayment of the premium?

7 A Yes.

8 Q The company and you failed to pay the premium?

9 A The company.

10 Q The company was you; is that right?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q You were the head of the company?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And concerning your violation of probation, Mr. White

15 asked you what your understanding was as to who could

16 violate your probation; is that correct?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And I think you testified that the probation

19 department would have to initiate it and Judge Mishler

20 would have to approve it; is that right?

21 A That's my understanding of the process, not as an

22 attorney, sir.

23 Q Do you understand it the government, if they want,
24 could initiate it with the probation department?
25 A I don't have t hat understanding, but if you say so it

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5552
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 is probably correct, sir.

2 Q Do you believe that if you don't testify here

3 according to the way the government wants you to testify

4 that they could initiate a violation of your probation?

5 A Absolutely not.

6 Q You don't believe so?

7 A For not testifying the way they want me to testify?

8 Q That's right.

9 A Absolutely not.

10 Q If you said that the people here were not trying to

11 intentionally defraud anyone, and Who's Who Worldwide was

12 not trying to defraud anyone, do you think the government

13 would not violate your probation?

14 MR. WHITE: Objection.

15 THE COURT: Sustained.

16 Q Mr. West, do you understand the government has the

17 power to violate your probation if they so choose?

18 A Yes, the government has that, yes.

19 Q They could go to the probation department; is that

20 correct?

21 A You said that before, yes.

22 Q Do you agree with that? It is not what I say, sir.

23 A I am not an attorney. I had an awareness that there
24 was a possibility.
25 Q Let me ask you this -- withdrawn.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5553
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 How did you get here today?

2 A By car.

3 Q By the limousine?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Is that the big black limousine out in the parking

6 lot over there?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q It is not?

9 A Not in the parking lot, sir.

10 Q Did you have a black limousine today?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q That's not your limousine?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q It is someone else's; is that correct?

15 A Yes, sir.

1 6 Q And I believe you told us on redirect that you

17 exchanged a business plan for limousine service?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Who did you exchange a business plan with?

20 A SCF Limousines.

21 Q What does he do?

22 A Own a limousine company.

23 Q Out on Long Island?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q SCF Limousines?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5554
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q What business plan did you give to SCF Limousines?

3 A It is called a U-7 Scor, S C O R, business plan.

4 Q Did you receive any monetary compensation from them?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Do you drive this limousine yourself?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q Someone drives it for you?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Whenever you are in New York you have free access to

11 the use of a limousine?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q You have access to the use of a limousine?

14 A To a pre constructed -- a pre contrived amount of

15 money, sir.

16 Q How much money?

17 A Approximately six or seven thousand dollars.

18 Q You are going to declare it on your taxes, the use of

19 the limousine?

20 A You bet.

21 Q I hope so.

22 A All right.

23 MR. JENKS: No further questions, your Honor.
24 Can I ask one more? They showed me something,
25 since it is on the line I asked about, I will finish.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5555
Watstein-recross/Jenks


1 THE COURT: Go ahead.

2 Q I will ask you to take a look at the Webster's New

3 World Dictionary, and let's take a look, you and me, at

4 the term "nominated" okay?

5 Would you agree that one of the many definitions

6 in there is to propose as a candidate for an award or

7 honor?

8 A You are reading it, yes.

9 Q From the highlighted text?

10 A It seems to be that. I can't quite read it. I am

11 sure what you are saying is accurate.

12 MR. JENKS: Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 MR. JENKS: Nothing further, your Honor.

15

16 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. SCHOER:

18 Q Mr. Watstein, good afternoon.

19 A Good afternoon.

20 Q Through your adult life you have been involved in

21 sales; is that fair to say?

22 A A substantial portion of time, yes, sir.

23 Q And you have been involved in direct marketing sales,
24 I think you talked about that; is that correct?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5556
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 Q And you have been involved in telemarketing sales; is

2 that correct to say?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Any other type of sales you have been involved in?

5 A A concept called consultative selling.

6 Q Is that what you do now?

7 A Partially.

8 Q And you not only have done that during the course of

9 your adult life, but I assume that you have taken courses

10 relating to sales; is that correct?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Not only that, but you have written some books

13 relating to sales; isn't that fair to say?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q And you have done some consulting relating to sales;

16 isn't that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And on the tape we just heard, you used the phrase,

19 salesmanship is salesmanship; isn't that so?

20 A I don't quite recall the phrase, if I said it, I said

21 it.

22 Q We heard about it ten minutes ago; is that right?

23 A I guess so.
24 Q We also heard in the course of your examination over
25 the last several days, you used the word "puffing"; is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5557
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 that right?

2 A I believe I used it or one of the attorneys used it,

3 sir.

4 Q All right.

5 Puffing is something that is used in describing

6 sales, isn't that so?

7 A It is one adjective, sir.

8 Q All right.

9 And that means that when you go to sell a

10 product, you accentuate the positive and sort of ignore

11 the negative; is that right, sir?

12 A Not quite, sir, no.

13 Q It means you put out your best face for your product;

14 is that fair to say?

15 A That is a more accurate statement.

16 Q Okay.

17 And I think during the course of your examination

18 you used the phrase "puffing the drop," do you remember

19 using that?

20 A No, sir, it was not my phrase.

21 Q You never used that phrase?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q All right.
24 You never used that phrase?
25 A No, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5558
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 Q Now, puffing has been part of salesmanship for a long

2 time; is that fair to say?

3 A As you defined it, yes, sir.

4 Q The Romans had a phrase for being aware of puffing on

5 the part of a salesman, right, caveat emptor, did you ever

6 hear that phrase?

7 A It doesn't mean that, sir.

8 Q It means buyer beware?

9 A It has nothing to do with puffing --

10 Q It means let the buyer beware; is that right?

11 A Absolutely.

12 MR. GEDULDIG: Can the witness speak louder,

13 please.

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q And it had to do with buyers and sellers of products;

16 is that so?

17 A No, sir -- yes.

18 Q And it had to do with salesmanship?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q It had to do with the fact that a buyer should be

21 aware and beware of salesmanships; isn't that so?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q And is it fair to say based on your experience it's
24 an every day occurrence that salespeople puff?
25 A No, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5559
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 Q You don't believe it is an every day occurrence that

2 salespeople accentuate or put on the best face with

3 respect to their product?

4 A It happens quite regularly, not an every day

5 occurrence.

6 Q Would you say it is an every day occurrence with

7 respect to advertising?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q You don't believe that companies, major companies

10 that advertise, puff?

11 A It is a connotation of the word "puff" that you are

12 not using, sir.

13 Q In the way we define "puff" put on the best face with

14 respect to their product?

15 A If you are saying it only that way, if that's your

16 definition, it is accurate in general.

17 Q Well, do you believe that, for example, a Cadillac is

18 an oasis of comfort and serenity?

19 A I believe it fits your definition of puffing.

20 Q It is puffing, right? So when Cadillac puts in an

21 advertisement that the interior of its product is an oasis

22 of comfort and serenity, that's puffing, right?

23 A As you defined it, sir.
24 Q Do you believe as a consumer, as a person who might
25 purchase a Cadillac, that you believe that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5560
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 A I think it is colorful language in advertising as

2 opposed to puffing.

3 Q It is colorful language in advertising, right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And the buyer must beware; is that right?

6 A Absolutely not related to your former statement.

7 Q And how about an ad from Lincoln. To hear how quiet

8 it is, listen to this ad, right (indicating).

9 Do you think that buyers believe that?

10 A I think it is colorful language.

11 Q It is puffing, right, puffery?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q It is not?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q How about a Firebird Pontiac, to launch you into

16 another dimension, mind bending acceleration, so strap on

17 a Trans-Am and step into the future.

18 Do you think that buyers really believe that?

19 A I would trust not.

20 Q It is puffery, right?

21 A That one is puffery, yes, sir.

22 Q The buyer beware, right?

23 A Not related to your statements, sir.
24 Q And sometimes advertising and companies not only use
25 that kind of puffery, but they use the kind of puffery

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5561
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 where they appeal to your ego, right?

2 A It is an appeal, yes.

3 Q When Patek Philippe has an advertisement that says

4 this watch goes beyond measuring hours, right? Ee

5 simple form of owning one can add nothing to your day; is

6 that right?

7 A I don't think so.

8 Q Do you think Patek Philippe is any different from by

9 50 dollar Seiko in keeping time?

10 A In keeping time.

11 MR. SCHOER: I don't know how to say it, I can't

12 even afford one.

13 A Repeat the question, sir.

14 Q I don't know the last question, what it was.

15 It is not any better in keeping time?

16 A In that function, no, sir.

17 Q That's the function you purchase a watch for; is that

18 right?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q S ometimes you purchase it for your ego?

21 A For prestige of -- if it is valid.

22 Q You purchase it for its validity?

23 A If it is valid.
24 Q If it is valid?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5562
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 Q And people purchase other things for prestige?

2 A If it is valid.

3 Q Like Armani suits?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Or Donna Karen clothes?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And it is puffery to advertise that, would you say?

8 A Not if it is valid, to be accurate.

9 Q Do you think Paul Stuart, when they say, that's why,

10 like this president and CEO of one of the New York's most

11 prestigious banks, they are customers of ours, do you

12 think that that is puffery?

13 A I think it is an accurate statement, sir.

14 Q Do you think that a suit such as this dynamic bead

15 s tripe projects a confidence equal to your own, impression

16 as easily and natural as you do? Doesn't that appeal to

17 someone's ego? That's why they go out and buy this?

18 A That's a fair statement about that sentence.

19 Q It is just a piece of cloth like any other suit,

20 right?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q It is not puffery?

23 A It is various lines, sir, of puffery, exaggeration,
24 lying.
25 Q It is puffery?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5563
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 A I believe it is a somewhat accurate statement.

2 Q People who buy Paul Stuart suits or any suit, when

3 they go and read this advertisement, that is not why they

4 are buying the suit, because the advertisement says it

5 projects a confidence equal to your own, is it?

6 A It might be, sir.

7 Q And the government does the same thing, i sn't that

8 fair to say? When they advertise, they puff as well. The

9 Army, be the best that you can be.

10 Do you honestly believe that joining the Army

11 makes you the best that you can be?

12 A Possibly.

13 Q It possibly could, provides you with an opportunity,

14 right?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q But it doesn't necessarily mean you can be the best

17 that you can be?

18 A I don't think the statement means that as a guaranty.

19 Q Or in four years you won't recognize yourself if you

20 join the United States armed forces? Do you think people

21 really believe that?

22 A Not that particular statement.

23 Q It is puffery. It is in big lines, it is puffery?
24 A Puffery, but not lying.
25 Q The government puffs on their advertisement, right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5564
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 When was the last time you felt like you

2 belonged, the Air National Guard join the Air National

3 Guard. Give us two weeks and we will give you a chance to

4 travel to exotic places. That's what it says in these

5 ads?

6 A That's an accurate statement, sir.

7 Q It is not puffery?

8 A I don't think that one is.

9 Q Do you think everyone who joins the Air National

10 Guard gets to travel to exotic places?

11 A If you read the phrase back, it doesn't say that.

12 Q It says we will give you chance to travel to exotic

13 locations around the world?

14 A We will give you the chance to, it says.

15 Q Do you think everybody who joins the Air National

16 Guard gets the chance to travel to exotic place?

17 A A chance, yes, sir.

18 Q It is puffery, isn't it?

19 A Not that particular sentence, sir.

20 Q In the Air Guard you will learn wh at it is like to be

21 a member of a winning team?

22 A It sounds like an accurate statement to me.

23 Q Have you been in the Air Guard?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q You spent weekends in the Air National Guard, and you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5565
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 become a part of a winning national team by spending one

2 weekend a month? It is puffery, be the best that you can

3 be. It is puffery, right?

4 A Sir, as I previously testified, some of the

5 statements are accurate, some are puffery. It depends on

6 who is making the statement.

7 Q Salesmanship is salesmanship, right?

8 A Salesmanship is not lying, sir.

9 Q Those not lies. They are puffs?

10 A The ones you read, sir, fit in that category, yes.

11 Q They fit into lies?

12 A No, fit into the category of accurate statements or

13 puffs.

14 Q Puffs, right?

15 A Not all of them, sir.

16 Q That's all it is, is a lot of puffery; is that right?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q That's what makes sales?

19 A Not all the time, sir.

20 Q And that's why we say, caveat emptor, let the buyer

21 beware, buyers should ask questions, buyers should be

22 aware, they should be beware, right?

23 A Not all the time, sir.
24 MR. SCHOER: That's all.
25 THE COURT: Anything else?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5566
Watstein-recross/Schoer


1 MR. GEDULDIG: I have a few questions.

2

3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. GEDULDIG:

5 Q Mr. Watstein, I believe you were answering some

6 questions for Mr. Trabulus a little while ago, and in

7 response to his question which were words to the effect,

8 and I think Mr. Trabulus asked you, if you c an pass --

9 anyone could pass a lie detector test if they took the

10 appropriate drugs, and you said that wasn't accurate; do

11 you remember that?

12 A To the best of my knowledge, that's correct, sir.

13 Q And what led you to make that statement?

14 A My discussion of the polygraph operator.

15 Q You also said you are not an expert; is that

16 correct?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q You were trying to find out if you were -- if you

19 could take drugs to take a lie detector test?

20 A Not the subject of the conversation.

21 Q You spoke to the polygraph operator to take that?

22 A He spoke to me about it.

23 Q The polygraph operator asked you if you took any
24 drugs?
25 A One of the questions under the polygraph.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5567
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 Q You told him you had or had not?

2 A Had not.

3 Q Did you ask him if you could take any drugs to pass

4 the test?

5 A Subsequently to the conversation, I asked him why his

6 questions was pointed that way, and he informed me why he

7 asked the question.

8 Q Who paid for the purposes of taking the polygraph

9 test?

10 A I believe the insurance company did. I didn't.

11 Q You didn't, and it wasn't the government?

12 A Not that I know of, sir.

13 Q The insurance company told you you had to take the

14 test?

15 A No. I volunteered for it.

16 Q Who suggested you take the test?

17 A I did, sir.

18 Q Was that the first and only time you ever took a

19 polygraph test?

20 A The second time, sir.

21 Q The second test, was it related to the same

22 incidents?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q Was it years apart?
25 A 20 years apart, sir.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5568
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 Q Who told you to take the first polygraph test 20

2 years ago?

3 A I volunteered to take it.

4 Q Who told you to take it? Suggested to take it?

5 A I suggested I take it.

6 Q To who?

7 A To the state police of the state of Michigan.

8 Q And that wouldn't have had anything to do with the

9 fire of the store that you were managing?

10 A Of course, it did, sir.

11 Q Okay.

12 Now, you said in some questions posed that -- to

13 Mr. White, when you started the Who's Who operation, you

14 had honest intentions?

15 A As relating to 1987 and early 1988, yes.

16 Q It is not exactly accurate?

17 A I think it is very accurate.

18 Q Would you talk louder?

19 A I think it is very accurate, sir.

20 Q When you started the company, who was the president?

21 I didn't hear you?

22 A I am trying to think of an answer to your question,

23 sir.
24 Q It is your company.
25 A I am not sure when my wife was made the president.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5569
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 She was the president of the company.

2 Q Was there ever a time you were the president of the

3 company?

4 A Yes.

5 Q For how long?

6 A For the last two years.

7 Q Go back to '88, '89, in the beginning was your wife

8 the president of the company?

9 A I believe so, yes.

10 Q And that was done for a particular reason?

11 A As it relates to a non-Who's Who matter, yes, sir.

12 Q And you were using -- withdrawn.

13 You had a tax liability at that time, did you

14 not?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And you were using Who's Who as a vehicle to earn

17 money without having to report it to the IRS, right?

18 A It is not a quite accurate statement, sir.

19 Q Well, I know you like the phrase, the beneficial

20 use. You had the beneficial use of income that your wife

21 was getting for doing absolutely nothing; is that right?

22 A It is a substantial accurate statement, yes, sir.

23 Q And that income that you had the beneficial use of
24 was generated by Who's Who, your Who's Who; is that right?
25 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5570
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 Q Was she earning a salary, or an income from Who's Who

2 as president?

3 A Partially, yes, sir.

4 Q And you had the beneficial use of that salary?

5 A Absolutely.

6 Q And it was substantially more than the income you

7 were technicall y showing for the work you were doing for

8 the company, right?

9 A A totally accurate statement, yes, sir.

10 Q And so, you were hiding income from the IRS that you

11 had the beneficial use of?

12 A That's what I pled guilty to, yes, sir.

13 Q So, am I not correct in saying that you were using

14 Who's Who among other things, as a vehicle to hide income

15 from the IRS?

16 A In the context that you put it in, sir, it might be

17 accurate.

18 Q And that's a crime, isn't it?

19 A I pled guilty to that, sir.

20 Q When you started Who's Who, it was not with the best

21 of intentions, was it?

22 A Your question is relevant to the operations of the

23 company, not my tax liability, sir.
24 Q I am talking about your use of Who's Who. That's
25 what I am talking about?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5571
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A Now that you phrase it that way, you are absolutely

2 correct, sir.

3 Q You didn't have those intentions when you started up

4 Who's Who?

5 A In that finite statement, you are correct, sir.

6 Q When Mr. White said to you, and you said you had the

7 best of intentions in 1988, so, in some small finite area,

8 the answers you gave to Mr. White was not accurate, was

9 it?

10 A No, sir, it is not accurate.

11 Q You are a very bright man, aren't you? Aren't you?

12 A I think I am intelligent, yes, sir.

13 Q I think you think you are very bright, don't you?

14 You don't have to be modest with us, Mr. Watstein.

15 MR. WHITE: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q In any event --

18 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig, would you get to the

19 point?

20 MR. GEDULDIG: I am getting there very quickly,

21 Ju dge.

22 Q Mrs. Watstein was the president of this company; is

23 that right?
24 A Mrs. West.
25 Q Did you ever change your name?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5572
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A No, sir.

2 Q You took a plea under the name of Watstein?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q She married you?

5 A As West.

6 Q We will call it West-Watstein, not to mix up the

7 parties, if it is all right.

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q In any event, she was the president of this company

10 for at least several years; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir, a year and a half, or two years, yes, sir.

12 Q And she was never indicted or charged with any of the

13 criminal activities involving your Who's Who; is that

14 right?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And there is a reason for that, isn't there?

17 A Yes.

18 Q An d what was that reason?

19 A She had no knowledge or intent.

20 Q Right. You didn't tell her about the criminal

21 activities that you were involved with; is that right?

22 A I was fully responsible. Absolutely right, sir.

23 Q So, she was ignorant of what you were doing?
24 A Totally correct.
25 Q You did not tell her, did you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5573
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A Correct.

2 Q So she did not know and, therefore, was not

3 responsible for things you did not -- she did not know

4 about, right?

5 A Repeat the question, please.

6 Q She is not responsible for things she did not know

7 about?

8 A She is not responsible, yes, that's an accurate

9 statement.

10 Q Similarly, Annette Haley, a salesperson at Who's Who

11 Worldwide could not be responsible for things she co uld

12 not know about; is that correct, or fair to say?

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q Do you know if Annette Haley was told about all the

16 policy and operations going on at Who's Who Worldwide?

17 MR. WHITE: Objection.

18 THE COURT: Sustained.

19 Q I would like to ask you a few questions about this

20 Blue Cross thing.

21 You said there was a failure to pay a premium; is

22 that right?

23 A Yes, sir, correct.
24 Q And am I correct that the failure to pay a premium
25 doesn't automatically within a day or two or three result

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5574
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 in the cancellation of an insurance policy?

2 A Normally correct, sir.

3 Q Am I correct in saying that usually the insurance

4 company gives you thirty days or thereabouts to make t he

5 payment, even if it is past due?

6 A No, sir, it is not accurate.

7 Q How many days was that Blue Cross Blue Shield policy

8 that was cancelled, how many days late were you in making

9 the payment?

10 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

11 Q I think you also testified --

12 THE COURT: That doesn't call for a yes or no.

13 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

14 It is difficult, your Honor, to answer the

15 question.

16 THE COURT: You can say you can't answer the

17 question. But the question is how many days.

18 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

19 Q All right, you got the right answers now?

20 In any event, I think you also testified that

21 somebody failed to make the payment?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Who was that?
24 A The bookkeeper.
25 Q And who was that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5575
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A Her name was Roberta.

2 Q Roberta what?

3 A I don't remember her last name, sir.

4 Q How much was the payment, how much was the premium

5 due?

6 A I don't have a recollection, I guess a couple of

7 thousands dollars.

8 Q And it is your testimony that as much as thirty days

9 had not passed from the day the premium was due until you

10 ran down with a check to Blue Cross Blue Shield?

11 A Either 21 or thirty days, sir.

12 Q It was past due by 21 days or more?

13 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

14 Q Okay.

15 Can you tell me whether or not the employees had

16 the cost of health insurance deducted from their pay?

17 A Yes, sir, those who participated in the program.

18 Q So, you were late in making a payment, which was not

19 coming out of your pocket, it was paid out of -- by the

20 employees?

21 A Actually the payment was made on a timely basis, Blue

22 Cross did not acknowledge receiving the check.

23 Q And then you went down there; is that right?
24 A No. We sent a messenger with a check when they told
25 us it was cancelled.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5576
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 Q And it wasn't your fault, it was Roberta's fault?

2 A I take full responsibility, I ran the company, sir.

3 Q But you did say Roberta failed to make a payment?

4 A That is correct.

5 Q And I believe you also testified that you had names

6 on a selection committee; is that right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And I think you said it was somebody's fault for not

9 having notified some of the people whom you put on that

10 selection committee?

11 A But I am still responsible, sir. It was my

12 secretary.

13 Q My question was: Did you say that there was somebody

14 who had not notified the people who were named on that

15 selection committee?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Is that Roberta?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q Who was that?

20 A I think it was Alfie Parthe, P A R T H E, I believe,.

21 Q What you do, Mr. Watstein, you say you will take

22 responsibility, but you blame other people for all of the

23 things that occurred under your watch; is that right?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q And when you talk louder like that, does that mean

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5577
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 you are really telling me the truth now?

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q The fire at your home, there was a million dollar

5 policy on that?

6 A I think it was greater than that, sir.

7 Q It was at least a million dollars?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And the government took that million; is that right?

10 A They took the value of the land, sir, and the home

11 which aggregated to almost a million dollars.

12 Q Did they get the money from the insurance company?

13 A I don't know if they -- I am sure they got a portion

14 of it, yes, sir.

15 Q You don't know if the money was paid out on that

16 insurance policy?

17 A The first money was paid to the bank who held the

18 mortgage, sir.

19 Q Well, the policy was for a million dollars, I believe

20 you said; is that right?

21 A A little more, I am not sure to tell you the truth.

22 Q You said the cost of the house was $600,000?

23 A The raw cost of the replacement, sir.
24 Q The value of the land was $600,000?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REP ORTER

5578
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 Q The land was certainly worth as much when you bought

2 it as when the fire occurred?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q It went down in value?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Up?

7 A Neither.

8 Q It was worth as much as when you bought it?

9 A No, the land was damaged with the debris and other

10 problems from the fire.

11 Q You would have no -- you would have had no problems

12 at all. You would have been eligible to put in a claim

13 for a million dollars if you had no criminal problems with

14 the government, and all you had was this fire at your

15 home, you would have been in line to collect on that

16 million dollar plus policy; is that right?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q You would have had to use some of that money to pay

19 off the mortgage?

20 A There were two mortgages, yes, sir.

21 Q To pay off the two mortgages?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And you would have been sitting with the cash left
24 over, right?
25 A If there was cash left over, yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5579
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 Q And you would also have had the land?

2 A That's correct, sir.

3 Q So you would have been ahead of the game? You would

4 have been sitting with a piece of property with a

5 foundation laid; is that right?

6 A There would have been no foundation if it burned

7 down, sir.

8 Q I am talking about the concrete.

9 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig, I am going to interrupt

10 you and terminate this line of questioning now.

11 JUROR NO. 4: Thank you.

12 Q Let me ask you some questions about Jill Barnes.

13 On one occasion, I believe you said October of

14 1994, October 18th, I think, of 1994, you had a

15 conversation with Jill Barnes?

16 A I believe that's correct, sir.

17 Q And during that course of that conversation, you

18 mentioned to Barnes something about being a deli owner and

19 having one shop and being nothing more than a high school

20 grad at most?

21 A I think so. But I will have to see a copy of the

22 transcript if you want me to comment on it.

23 Q Is that your recollection of the conversation, that
24 it is something with you being a deli owner at that time?
25 A I think so. But there was 61 tapes. I have to see

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5580
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 the actual transcript.

2 Q And there came a period of time that the government

3 wrote a 5K letter to Judge Mishler regarding your

4 prospective sentence; is that right?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And a part of t he 5K letter they submitted to Judge

7 Mishler, included the complaint and the affidavit signed

8 by Inspector Biegelman; is that right?

9 A The complaint against whom, sir?

10 Q Against Who's Who Worldwide. .

11 A I assume, I didn't see the attachments.

12 Q The attachments was provided to your lawyer?

13 A I assume so.

14 Q And the 5K letter was provided to your lawyers?

15 A That I saw, yes.

16 (Mr. Geduldig confers with Mr. White.)

17 Q Let me show you a portion of the affidavit signed by

18 Inspector Biegelman, page 80.

19 (Handed to the witness.)

20 Q If you would, there are a couple of paragraphs, if

21 you read it to yourself, I will appreciate it?

22 A Which paragraphs are you referring to, sir?

23 Q Jill Barnes. It is designated Jill Barnes.
24 A Okay.
25 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

HARRY RA PAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5581
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 proceedings.)

2 Q Let me ask you to turn to the back of that affidavit,

3 I think the next to the last, or second to the last page.

4 A If you would show me what you mean, sir, thank you.

5 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

6 Q You see a line with the name appearing below it of

7 Mr. Biegelman, Martin Biegelman?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q You see a signature on that line?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q You don't recognize the signature; is that right?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q And with regard to the paragraphs 80 that I just

14 showed to you, do you see any reference in there at all to

15 a delicatessen, or delicatessen ownerships, or anything

16 else about delicatessens?

17 A I don't believe he references the particular vocation

18 I use, sir.

19 Q Delicatessen?

20 A I don't see that, no, sir.

21 Q I think you testified earlier on on redirect

22 examination by Mr. White, that in some instances some

23 information led to the exoneration of people?
24 A Some instances, as to other cases?
25 Q Work that you did led to the exoneration of some

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5582
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 people?

2 A In other cases, yes, sir.

3 Q It didn't lead to the exoneration of Ms. Barnes?

4 Anything you did, did not lead to the exoneration of

5 Ms. Barnes; is that correct?

6 A I have no knowledge of that.

7 Q Do you know if she was ever indicted?

8 A I don't have any first-hand knowledge of that, sir.

9 Q Now, I would like to read a small section from the

10 transcript of the conversation you had with Annette Haley

11 on November 11th of '94. This is Governme nt Exhibit

12 1325-A, a very small section?

13 A Is that included in this, sir?

14 Q No.

15 In the middle of page 6.

16 A If you provide me a copy.

17 Q It is a very small section, in the binder right to

18 your left.

19 A What number, sir?

20 Q 1325-A.

21 A Give me a moment, please, sir.

22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

23 proceedings.)
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And page 6; about a quarter of the way down.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5583
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A Yes.

2 Q Right after Annette says, yeah, it begins, the

3 attribution is to you, Watstein.

4 So, I am not going to find a delicatessen owner

5 in this thing?

6 Annette, no.

7 Watstein, I see.

8 Annette, no, no, no, no.

9 Watstein, okay.

10 Annette, no. You won't find. We do have a

11 section where, umm, I don't know if it is in this registry

12 or in another book, that they publish where we do have

13 some sort. But it is nothing like this.

14 Do you see that?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Do you have an indication there that she is telling

17 you that delicatessen owners in one of their registries

18 are named?

19 A I think it is a pretty unclear phrase, sir.

20 Q You didn't try to elucidate any other information

21 from her after she said those things, did you?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Now, you say with regard to the 61 tape recorded
24 conversations that you had, you sent a little of the
25 tapes, and I think a little synopsis and a cover sheet of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5584
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 each of the tapes to Mr. Biegelman; is that right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And am I also correct in saying that when you made

4 these tapes, the only one present with you -- withdrawn.

5 There was no one present with you when you made

6 these tapes?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q Who was with you?

9 A In one of the tapes Inspector Leonard was with me.

10 Q Which one was that, if you recall?

11 A The first one, I believe.

12 Q And thereafter was one of them ever with you?

13 A There might have been one other tape in which

14 Inspector Leonard was present. I don't have an exact

15 recollection of it, sir.

16 Q Do you have any other recollections of any of the

17 other tapes having anybody else present?

18 A Other than those two, no, sir.

19 Q At least 60, perhaps 59 -- I take it back.

20 At least 59, and perhaps 60 tapes were made

21 without anybody from the postal inspectors or the United

22 States governme nts being present with you; is that right?

23 A That is correct, sir.
24 Q The only way they know that 61 tapes were made is
25 because you told them you made 61?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5585
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q If 67 tapes were made and you mailed in 61, they

3 would only know about the 61 you sent them?

4 A It would be an accurate statement, sir.

5 Q If you made several calls on a particular day to

6 individual of, individuals of Who's Who Worldwide, and

7 only reported back one or two conversations, they wouldn't

8 know otherwise; is that right?

9 A The context of what you are saying, yes, sir.

10 Q Did you ever speak to an individual named Liz

11 Sautter?

12 A The name doesn't ring a bell, sir.

13 Q Did you ever speak to an individual named Debbie

14 Benjamin?

15 A I am not sure, sir.

16 Q Do you know that name?

17 A It doesn't ring a bell.

18 Q You never found any information which exculpated

19 either Liz Sautter or Debbie Benjamin in any way during

20 your investigation of Who's Who Worldwide; did you?

21 MR. WHITE: Objection.

22 THE COURT: Sustained.

23 Q Mr. Watstein, did you ever lie to any of the
24 employees who were working for you when you were running
25 your Who's Who operation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5586
Watstein-recross/Geduldig


1 A I am sure I did.

2 Q Did you ever misrepresent to them the policies of

3 your company?

4 A I am sure I must have over a period of time.

5 Q Did you ever tell them that things were going on when

6 they were not, a selection committee?

7 A I think the employees were pretty much aware that

8 the re was not a selection committee.

9 Q It wasn't my question?

10 A I am sorry.

11 Q My question is: Did you ever tell your employees

12 that, for instance, there was a selection committee when

13 there was not?

14 A No.

15 Q You never did that?

16 A They understood it, sir. It was common knowledge.

17 Q Did you ever tell them that there were things in

18 place in your company that were not in place as far as

19 policy and operation?

20 A It is possible, yes, sir.

21 MR. GEDULDIG: No other questions.

22 THE COURT: Anybody else?

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5587
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 RECROSS EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. NEVILLE:

3 Q Hi, Mr. Grimaldi.

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.

6 Mr. Neville, do you have any questions you want

7 to ask?

8 MR. NEVILLE: Yes, your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Ask the questions and none of this

10 editorializing.

11 MR. NEVILLE: Yes, sir.

12 THE COURT: Because I am going to stop you.

13 MR. NEVILLE: I apologize, your Honor.

14 Q Mr. West, can we look at Government Exhibit 1308-A,

15 please. Mr. White asked you some questions about that on

16 his redirect examination?

17 THE COURT: What number was that, Mr. Neville?

18 MR. NEVILLE: 1308-A, your Honor.

19 Q Now, do you remember Mr. White was asking you about

20 the way Mr. Michaelson was answering your questions as far

21 as getting into the registry, and you were alluding to the

22 relative ease you were able to get into the registry?

23 A Would you repeat the question, sir?
24 Q No. I will withdraw it and try it again.
25 A Thank you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OF FICIAL COURT REPORTER

5588
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 Q Look at page 2, in fact, the spot that Mr. White had

2 pointed out, where you say about close to the middle of

3 the page, Scott, hi, my name is Ed Grimaldi, do you see

4 that?

5 A One second, sir.

6 Q Yes.

7 You say I got a letter from Cathy, in the summer,

8 umm, that I was accepted from Who's Who. Do you see that?

9 A No.

10 Q It is right along the same sentence, the same

11 attribution?

12 A Yes, sir, I do.

13 Q You told Scott Michaelson that you got a letter?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q So Scott Michaelson is hearing you say you got a

16 letter, right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q So, as far as Scott Michaelson is concerned or knows,

19 you received a letter, and as far as he is concerned or

20 knows, you are a possible candidate for his registry; is

21 tha t correct?

22 A An accurate statement, sir.

23 Q You go on in the same attribution and you say, you
24 sent in a form, you sent in a follow up, and nothing ever
25 happened. Do you see where you said that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5589
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And Scott says, they never called you back to

3 interview you? You see where Scott said that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q So Scott is thinking after you tell him you are a

6 legitimate guy who got something in the mail from Who's

7 Who Worldwide, right?

8 A I don't know what Scott is thinking, sir.

9 Q Well, by the things you say to him, you are trying to

10 show this jury, the judge, Mr. White, what Scott

11 Michaelson is thinking?

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 Q Not you?

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q Isn't part of the whole reason why you are here and

16 why this jury is listening to the tape, so they can

17 understand or think they can understand what Scott

18 Michaelson was thinking the day he was talking to you?

19 MR. WHITE: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q Go to page 5, sir, about two-thirds of the way down

22 the page, where Scott says, no, we have about 3,000

23 requests each month for inclusion. We only accept about
24 1,000 new members. Do you see that?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5590
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 Q Can you understand the difference between a request

2 for inclusion and someone who actually becomes a member?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Is that a concept you can grasp?

5 A I think I can grasp the concept, sir.

6 Q Can you grasp the idea that there can be any number

7 of idea s why 5,000 out of the 6,000 may not be accepted,

8 those requests?

9 A I am sure there are a number of reasons why they

10 would not be accepted, if that were true.

11 Q For example, one of the salespeople wouldn't be able

12 to reach on the telephone a potential member, a

13 prospective member, is that possible?

14 A Mathematically possible.

15 Q Mathematically or otherwise possible?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q How about if a card was sent in without the correct

18 information so the salesman could not contact the person?

19 A Possible.

20 Q How about if a card was sent in without the correct

21 phone number on it, is it then difficult for the

22 salesperson to contact the individual?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Possible?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5591
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 Q Finally if someone wasn't qualified, right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q So there could be any number of reasons why those

4 proportions could absolutely positively be accurate,

5 right?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q And let me ask you this: Do you know how Scott

8 Michaelson came to those mathematical proportions?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Do you know how Scott Michaelson came to say that to

11 you on the telephone?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q Do you know whether or not Scott Michaelson was

14 somewhere in the back room counting up nomination cards?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Do you know whether or not somebody else told Scott

17 Michaelson those proportions?

18 A I have no idea, sir.

19 Q You don't know, do you?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q The other part that Mr. White was talking to you

22 about your conversation with Scott, is where you were

23 talking about drop ping the unit of sale, one of your
24 highfalutin expressions. Do you remember saying that?
25 MR. WHITE: Objection.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5592
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 THE COURT: Yes.

2 MR. NEVILLE: Where was the highfalutin.

3 Q Dropping the units of sale, do you remember saying

4 that?

5 A Repeat the question.

6 Q Do you recall Mr. White was asking you questions

7 where you described a sales technique of dropping the unit

8 of sale?

9 A Yes.

10 Q You remember that?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Let's go to page 6 -- pardon me, page 7.

13 A The pages are not numbered, sir, is that the next

14 page?

15 Q The seventh page.

16 A One second, sir.

17 Q You can count.

18 Now, you see the attributions to Scott, five

19 attributions down from the top, where Scott says, okay,

20 and what does the company do, Mr. Grimaldi? Do you see

21 where Scott said that to you, Mr. West?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And what do you say? Read it?
24 A Umm, we are, umm, a beauty parlor.
25 Q Read what Scott says after that, nice and slowly?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5593
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 A Okay, umm, beauty parlor. They really -- I don't

2 think they would put that into the registry. The only

3 thing they would offer, they would give you a, like a two

4 year duration there. Because a beauty parlor really

5 can't, really benefit from the networking in the

6 registry.

7 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. West: What is to prevent

8 Scott Michaelson from still trying to sell you a lifetime

9 membership for $750 or whatever?

10 A Good sales judgment.

11 Q Maybe because you are not eligib le? How about that?

12 A I can't comment on that, sir.

13 Q And what is to prevent Scott Michaelson from not just

14 going with that previous price he told you about, the $250

15 membership?

16 A Good sales judgment.

17 Q He didn't do it, did he?

18 A That's right.

19 Q In fact, when you read that attribution to Scott, he

20 slows down, the wind is taken out of sales on this, isn't

21 it?

22 A I can't respond with a yes, sir or no.

23 Q He puts the brakes on, doesn't he?
24 A I can't answer yes or no.
25 Q You teach people to do sales presentations for the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5594
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 big bank in Philadelphia?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q You stopped doing it?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q You know how it works, the salesmanship on the phone,

6 whether you do it fo r a bank or the government, or

7 whatever?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And when you told Scott that you are working in a

10 beauty parlor, you are the owner of a beauty parlor, do

11 you say that Scott's reaction to that is aggressive

12 salesmanship? Yes or no?

13 A No.

14 Q Okay.

15 Scott is essentially discouraging you from buying

16 a membership in the registry, yes or no?

17 A No.

18 Q If he is -- is it fair to say if Scott Michaelson

19 sell as lifetime membership for $750, he is going to get a

20 higher commission?

21 A Yes.

22 Q If he sells a three-year membership for whatever it

23 was, was he going to get you a higher commission from what
24 actually he was going to sell you?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5595
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 Q Do you remember you were saying you were not

2 interested in having people say anything here, when

3 Mr. White was asking you questions about how people

4 weren't being made to say answers to you based on your

5 questions; do you remember that?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And how about the part where you say, right after

8 Scott talks about how you wouldn't benefit from the

9 networking in the registry, do you see that right smack in

10 the middle of the page, you say sure, we could? The

11 tables turn here, don't they, sir?

12 A I don't know what you mean.

13 Q You become the salesman, don't you, sir?

14 A Is that a question, sir?

15 Q Yes.

16 A No.

17 Q You say to Scott, sure, we can benefit from the

18 networking. This is you telling the salesman, you become

19 the salesman, don't you?

20 A No.

21 Q And then Scott says, he becomes the guy looking to be

22 sold to, and he says, umm, in what way?

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Did I make that up or did Scott say that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5596
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q You become the salesman?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q And then you say, did you ever hear of a female

5 executive? You said that, didn't you?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And now there you are trying to suggest to Scott that

8 there could be some reason I guess -- tell me if I am

9 wrong, that ladies go to beauty salons, and lady

10 executives would go to a beauty salon, and that's how you

11 could network, is that what you meant by that?

12 A Exactly.

13 Q So, it was not Scott saying that to you so you could

14 buy the membership, it was you saying it to Scott so he

15 can sell you the membership, right, Mr. West, sir?

16 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Neville, you are

17 screaming and shouting into the microphone.

18 Please desist from doing that.

19 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry.

20 A Would you repeat the question, sir?

21 Q Yes.

22 You became the salesman, right?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q And because you wanted Scott Michaelson to sell you
25 something that you and Marty Biegelman concocted that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5597
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 shouldn't have been sold, right?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q And Scott Michaelson says, after you say you are from

4 a beauty salon, Scott Michaelson says I don't think you

5 can really benefit from the networking, doesn't he,

6 doesn't he?

7 A He makes that statement, yes, sir.

8 Q He said, yes?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And he is a salesman on the phone a nd he is trying to

11 scam you according to you, Marty Biegelman and Ron White,

12 right?

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q Right?

16 THE COURT: I sustained the objection,

17 Mr. Neville.

18 Q And since Scott Michaelson isn't giving you the

19 answers that you want for your Marty Biegelman

20 investigation, you start to try to talk him into it, don't

21 you?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 MR. WHITE: Objection.
24 THE COURT: Mr. White, if you intend to object,
25 please rise and speak up. I can barely hear you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5598
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 Of course, you are in competition with someone

2 who is speaking somewhat louder than you are.

3 MR. WHITE: I will, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Unless you don't want to object at

5 all, than don't sta nd up at all. Don't try to stand up,

6 and don't try to whisper which is what you are doing.

7 MR. WHITE: I will speak louder, your Honor.

8 Q Now, isn't it true, sir, once in a normal

9 situation -- withdrawn.

10 Can you agree with me that this was not a normal

11 situation?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q It was not a normal sales situation, was it?

14 A Exactly the opposite, it was a normal situation.

15 Q It was?

16 A Of course.

17 Q You were really Ed Grimaldi?

18 A No.

19 Q You were reeling Sid and Annette's salon?

20 A It is not the word as normally was defined.

21 Q You are sure your name is not Webster, but West?

22 MR. WHITE: Objection.

23 THE COURT: Not entirely good, but you did get up
24 three-quarters in your chair, which is a great advance.
25 The only thing I saw was your head before.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, C M OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5599
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 MR. WHITE: Mr. Neville is wearing me out, your

2 Honor.

3 THE COURT: That may be. He has a right to

4 cross-examine in the style in which he is. And if he gets

5 a little bit loud, I will quiet him down, that's all.

6 All the lawyers have a particular method of

7 trying their case. I will let them do that until it

8 reaches a certain point.

9 MR. NEVILLE: In my case the method of madness;

10 is that right?

11 THE COURT: Are you going to be a while?

12 MR. NEVILLE: No. I am going to get out of here

13 pretty quick. Thank you.

14 Q Now, in this situation where you tell Scott you are a

15 salon owner, and he tells you you really wouldn't benefit

16 from the registry, there are a lot of normal people who

17 would have called up would have just decided they wouldn't

18 buy the r egistry and hang up?

19 A He didn't say that, sir.

20 Q The salesman stopped trying to sell you something,

21 right?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Scott Michaelson, the salesman, put the breaks on the
24 sale, and he said you really wouldn't benefit from the
25 registry sir?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5600
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 A He said the networking, sir.

2 Q Right. But that was one of the whole theories behind

3 this?

4 A One of many theories, sir.

5 Q It is one of the ways that people were sold the

6 registry for networking, right?

7 A One of the many benefits, yes.

8 Q While you are standing there, fixing Barbara Walters'

9 hair at the salon, you would network with her, right?

10 Yes?

11 A If I was fixing Barbara Walters' hair, that would be

12 correct, yes.

13 Q Did yo u ever look at one of these registries? If you

14 want, you might want to borrow my glasses.

15 A It might be necessary.

16 Q I am showing you Defendant's Exhibit Gordon

17 Exhibit P?

18 Now, if I am a big shot and want to be a lifetime

19 member I get to be put in the front of the book, right?

20 A That's what I am told, sir.

21 Q Then there is a spot in the back of the registry for

22 what is termed associate members?

23 A That was true in one or two of the registries, yes,
24 sir.
25 I don't want to use your glasses, thank you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5601
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 Q You can. You won't get cooties, I don't think.

2 If you don't pay a premium you will get put in if

3 back of the book; is that right?

4 A I don't think it is an accurate statement the way

5 your client describ ed it.

6 Q If you don't pay at all you can still be put in the

7 book as a listee; is that right?

8 A I don't know all the rules in the book.

9 Q You didn't care what the rules were, you wanted to

10 see if you can hook somebody to keep yourself out of

11 jail?

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q The prospective buyer becomes the attempted seller in

15 this case; isn't that a fact, sir?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q We will see if the jury buys it.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 MR. WHITE: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 We will take a ten-minute recess, ladies and

22 gentlemen. Please do not discuss the case, ladies and

23 gentlemen. And please recess yourselves.
24 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the
25 courtroom.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5602
Watstein-recross/ Neville


1

2 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

3

4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next one is

5 Exhibit 1360. The tape is 1360-A. The date is December

6 19th, 1994. It is a call to Who's Who Worldwide and Scott

7 Michaelson.

8 (Tape is played.)

9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next one is Exhibit

10 1371. The transcript is 1371-A. The date is February

11 3rd, 1995. It is a call to Sterling Who's Who. The

12 salesperson is Pat Brent, B R E N T.

13 (Tape is played.)

14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I know you said there was

15 one day this week we were going to break early. Is it

16 today?

17 THE COURT: No, tomorrow.

18 THE COURT: All right.

19 The next one is 1300, the transcript is 1300-A.

20 The date is August 12th, 1994. A call to Who's Who

21 Worldwide and Scott Michaelson.

22 (Tape is begun.)

23 THE COURT: It is ve ry low, Mr. White.
24 MR. WHITE: I will try to turn it up.
25 THE COURT: All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5603
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 (Tape is begun again.)

2 THE COURT: It is still very low.

3 MR. WHITE: Let me see if I can adjust it.

4 THE COURT: Right.

5 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

6 proceedings.)

7 MR. WHITE: We will play 1324. The transcript is

8 1324 A. The date is November 10th, 1994. The call is to

9 Who's Who Worldwide and Laura Winters.

10 (Tape is played.)

11 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to

12 recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

13 Please do not discuss the case even among

14 yourselves or anyone else. Keep an open mind. Come to no

15 conclusions.

16 We will recess until 9:30.

17 Have a nice evening.

18 (Whereupo n, at this time the jury leaves the

19 courtroom.)

20 THE COURT: What is going to happen tomorrow,

21 Mr. White?

22 MR. WHITE: Tomorrow we have Mr. Skonie and

23 Mr. Safer.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, there was something I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5604
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 wanted to take up, and your Honor indicated I could do

2 it.

3 THE COURT: Yes.

4 MR. TRABULUS: There is something else which is

5 briefer, and I would like to address that.

6 I learned from an answer that Mr. West gave, that

7 the government has far more transcripts than they

8 furnished to us.

9 Now, Mr. West said he had looked through all 61

10 of the transcripts -- transcripts of all 61 telephone

11 conversations. Mr. White informed me they don't have

12 transcripts of all of them. But apparently there are some

13 which were not given over to us. And I had thought all

14 transcripts that the government had had been given over to

15 us. And I thought under Rule 16 we were entitled to them,

16 and they were demanded.

17 Indeed, when we entered into the stipulation

18 which I entered into with respect to some defense

19 exhibits, I thought we had all the transcripts with the

20 tapes. Now I learn we do not. I will ask for all the

21 transcripts the government prepared.

22 It may save a lot of time.

23 THE COURT: Do you have other transcripts?
24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, Mr. West is mistaken. I
25 can't account for his answer. He may have reviewed all

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5605
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 the tapes, he did not review all the transcripts because

2 we don't have 61.

3 There are partial transcripts of a lot of them, I

4 think 40 or 50 of them, which is what is in evidence,

5 brief snippets or experts of them.

6 THE COURT: How about the tape recordings

7 themselves, do the defendants have those?

8 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, they have had that

9 for over a year.

10 MR. TRABULUS: Except for the ones which we got

11 on Friday.

12 MR. WHITE: Right. Which are not the 61 we were

13 talking about.

14 THE COURT: There are no other transcripts

15 Mr. Trabulus.

16 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, Mr. White led us to

17 believe there are some transcripts he had not given to us

18 because he did not intend to introduce them.

19 MR. WHITE: When did Mr. White indicate that to

20 you? You asked me lunchtime and I told you Mr. West was

21 mistaken. There are not 61 transcripts.

22 MR. TRABULUS: I thought, your Honor, whe n

23 Mr. White asked me to give him a number of the tape he
24 wanted to play and he would give me a transcript if there
25 is one. If he gave me all the transcripts, fine, it

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5606
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 wasn't the tenor of our conversation. Apparently there

2 was a misunderstanding in our conversation.

3 THE COURT: Apparently there was a confusion

4 there. He now states there are no other transcripts.

5 MR. WHITE: Let me clarify this, your Honor.

6 Aside from what the defendants have been given --

7 may I have a moment? I want to make sure that the answer

8 is accurate, because apparently it is in issue.

9 (Mr. White confers with Inspector Pagano.)

10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the ones given to the

11 defendants were all the ones we have, except with the

12 exception of one thing. Ther e was some portion of

13 previously untranscribed tapes that a week or two before

14 trial we sent to a service to do some of them. I don't

15 know if we got any of those back yet, if it is done. Off

16 the top of my head I can't tell you that.

17 THE COURT: Which tapes are those?

18 MR. WHITE: Some of the 61.

19 THE COURT: When you say you sent them to a

20 service, when did you send them to a service?

21 MR. WHITE: I believe it was shortly before

22 trial. It was to help us to prepare final transcripts of

23 certain excerpts of certain tapes.
24 THE COURT: You must -- if you gave it to them
25 six weeks ago, it is assumed that they concluded their

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5607
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 work. If not, would you please find out where those

2 transcripts are? You say you have not gotten them?

3 MR. WHITE: I don't know, your Honor. We

4 obviously have been here everyday.

5 THE COURT: Here means if something came

6 somewhere else it would not be given to you?

7 MR. WHITE: It would be back at the postal

8 inspector's office.

9 THE COURT: Ask the postal inspector for it.

10 Tell him to see to it, and get it done. It should have

11 been done a long time ago.

12 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I made it crystal clear

13 from the start that the government was not going to

14 transcribe every tape.

15 THE COURT: But the government did transcribe

16 some tapes, correct?

17 MR. WHITE: Some tapes, yes, some tapes.

18 THE COURT: Bring them in.

19 MR. WHITE: If there are any that are not

20 previously given to the defense you say.

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 MR. WHITE: I want to make it clear that the

23 defendants have had the tapes all alon g. It is not a
24 matter of --
25 THE COURT: I understand. If you have

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5608
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 transcripts bring it in, the transcripts other than the

2 ones in evidence.

3 MR. WHITE: Yes, I will. I don't know if we do,

4 but I will look.

5 THE COURT: Okay.

6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to now

7 turn to the tapes which were turned over to us on Friday.

8 Before I was involved in this case, I understand

9 there were specific requests by defense counsel for all

10 the transcripts of all the tapes.

11 THE COURT: What tapes now?

12 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, last Friday, Mr. White

13 turned over to us tapes that -- if I can recall what he

14 said, he said that these tapes had apparently been kept

15 with the tapes from the Oxford Who's Who investigation.

16 But these tapes pertain to Who's Who Worldwide as well.

17 What he also turned over to us is some tapes from

18 the Oxford Who's Who investigation.

19 What I got, and I believe each defense counsel

20 who took one, got, was nine cassette tapes.

21 Of those nine cassette tapes there were five that

22 bore the date 12/8/92. And those 12/8/92 tapes were

23 interviews that Mr. Watstein conducted of people, almost
24 exclusively former employees of Who's Who Worldwide. And
25 there was at least one interview of an Oxford person

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5609
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 there. The vast majority were Who's Who Worldwide people.

2 THE COURT: What were these interviews about?

3 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, similar to the

4 interview you heard of Mr. Martin, and briefly a portion

5 of this Lady Regina was pl ayed.

6 It is part of the process where Mr. Watstein was

7 looking to hire people to work in a new Who's Who.

8 THE COURT: So, this was another interview

9 session?

10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. And it preceded the

11 interview session at which Mr. Martin was interviewed.

12 THE COURT: Who was interviewed?

13 MR. TRABULUS: Well, the names are not entirely

14 clear. But there were some I would get, a Mr. Friedman, a

15 former Who's Who employee. A gentleman by the name of

16 Larry. I don't know his last name.

17 Richard Jacobs, or Jacols, or Jay. It is hard to

18 tell from the tape. We don't have the transcript, I don't

19 know their names. There was some women and I don't know

20 their names.

21 Significantly, your Honor, some of these tapes

22 contain information which at the least would be considered

23 favorable to the defense, and in other instances

24 exculpatory, particularly as to the salespeople. And
25 particularly Mr. Gordon and the corporations, not only

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5610
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 exculpatory, but quite relevant to issues which should

2 have been fully addressed at the suppression hearing, the

3 Franks hearing but could not be born with respect to the

4 information the postal inspectors had at the time they

5 prepared the affidavit with respect to the search

6 warrants.

7 I didn't have a transcript. I am not a tape

8 recorder in my head, and I can't repeat everything on the

9 tapes. But I can tell you that this Mr. Friedman, for

10 example, who was interviewed, said some things which I

11 think were quite significant.

12 He said in response to questions by Mr. West, you

13 would be surprised or amazed how many people actuall y used

14 the book, referring to the registry. And he explained --

15 this was before the CD-ROM was in existence.

16 He explained people would call up and asking for

17 public affairs. And there was some discussion as to

18 whether there was a public affairs office or not. And

19 Mr. Friedman said --

20 THE COURT: Mr. Friedman was a Who's Who employee

21 at that time?

22 MR. TRABULUS: I can't tell. I believe

23 Mr. Friedman was no longer a Who's Who employee, because
24 he thought he wasn't paid everything he felt he was
25 entitled to be paid.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5611
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 THE COURT: What was he referring to people

2 calling up? Calling what company?

3 MR. TRABULUS: Calling Who's Who Worldwide. And

4 he said people used the book and they called up and asked

5 for pu blic affairs and they were put in touch with other

6 members, other members who can, and then they can network

7 in that way.

8 When asked what kind of criticism he had for the

9 pitch he was given, his criticism was with the fact that

10 it had run on sentences, and things of that nature. He

11 indicated that it was a good pitch. He didn't see any

12 lies.

13 This man was --

14 THE COURT: I don't understand how that is going

15 to help you as of this time in this trial. It perhaps

16 furnishes witnesses.

17 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

18 THE COURT: Which you can, if you desire to use,

19 that is up to you, but I don't know where that can hurt

20 you at this time in this trial.

21 MR. TRABULUS: It may be the tapes are not

22 admissible because of the hearsay exception. If we had

23 them early on, we could find these people and call them as
24 witness es.
25 THE COURT: You know who they are now?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5612
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 MR. TRABULUS: I know the last name Friedman, is

2 the first name Larry.

3 THE COURT: That's all you would have known three

4 months ago.

5 MR. TRABULUS: Three months ago I might have been

6 able to find --

7 THE COURT: I think I found chits for you to have

8 an investigator, or somebody had one.

9 MR. TRABULUS: There has been an investigator.

10 THE COURT: Send them out.

11 MR. TRABULUS: There still is an investigator.

12 The point of the matter is another one of these

13 people talked how they weeded out a lot of these names and

14 were selected. This was a salesperson.

15 I am talking now specifically about the

16 suppressions motion, your Honor. Where the complaint, the

17 affidavit in support of the search warrant, where it

18 indicated that the informant that Mr. Biegelman spoke to

19 said everyone gets accepted, 99 percent, and he made no

20 mention of anything along this line.

21 THE COURT: You have a right to make a motion to

22 suppress at any time.

23 MR. TRABULUS: What I would like to do, and I
24 can't lay it all out here, is renew the original motion to
25 suppress.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5613
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 THE COURT: You better give me something in

2 writing, Mr. Trabulus.

3 MR. TRABULUS: Obviously, this is not a

4 particularly good time for me to be working on briefs.

5 THE COURT: If this evidence is -- it certainly

6 could not negate probable cause if there is overwhelming

7 evidence to the contrary. We are talking probable cause.

8 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, a nd Franks.

9 THE COURT: Whether it is more likely true than

10 not true.

11 MR. TRABULUS: At this point the evidence which

12 would have been suppressed has more than likely come in in

13 this trial.

14 THE COURT: If that is a mistake you have all

15 kinds of grounds.

16 MR. TRABULUS: But I would have to make a record

17 with regard to this.

18 THE COURT: All right.

19 MR. TRABULUS: So, I would ask your Honor if I

20 would be permitted, since the Court has the power to defer

21 decisions on a suppression motion until after the trial,

22 if I can be timely --

23 THE COURT: If you wish for me to do it, I will
24 do it.
25 MR. TRABULUS: At the time I would get any papers

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5614
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 together, and considering a not guilty motion -- verdict

2 would obviate the motion in any event, that I would ask to

3 deem it a suppression to motion and submit the papers

4 after trial.

5 THE COURT: It is a fair request, and your

6 request to submit the motion is now made orally, and I

7 will permit you to affect it after the trial. You can

8 join it with the judgment that used to be called

9 notwithstanding the verdict -- judgment for acquittal.

10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

11 THE COURT: Motion for judgment of acquittal.

12 MR. TRABULUS: The 29 motion.

13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 MR. TRABULUS: We don't have the addresses of

15 some of these people.

16 THE COURT: Let's find out if the government has

17 some of these addresses.

18 Maybe the famous Inspector Biegelman knows where

19 the addresses are? I have not seen him, but maybe he is

20 around somewhere.

21 Has he left the employ of the government,

22 Mr. White?

23 MR. TRABULUS: He testified for a thousand pages
24 at the suppression hearing?
25 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor, Inspector Biegelman

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5615
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 is since transferred to California.

2 THE COURT: All right. I see.

3 MR. WHITE: Inspector Biegelman was not involved

4 in the making of the tapes here. It was Inspector

5 Leonard.

6 THE COURT: Inspector Biegelman did such a

7 thorough job that he impressed the Second Circuit with

8 evidence he received after I made my decision. An unusual

9 thing. They used that to send the case back. Most

10 unusual.

11 MR. WHITE: That's correct, your Honor, but Judge

12 Nickerson --

13 THE COURT: However, that's the law of the case.

14 I would like you to ask the inspectors whether

15 they know where this Friedman is, and so forth. Give them

16 a list of the all the names of the people you want, and I

17 am directing the government if they have this information

18 to produce it.

19 MR. WHITE: I have asked for it already and I am

20 awaiting an answer.

21 THE COURT: With such efficiency, I would imagine

22 they would have all of that.

23 MR. WHITE: If they have it. It wasn't very
24 efficient to put these in the wrong file, but they were.
25 That I can't control.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5616
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 THE COURT: Okay.

2 MR. WHITE: I point out one other thing.

3 Mr. Trabulus' recitation of what these tapes

4 contain suggest that this is somehow some blatantly

5 exculpatory information.

6 I point out that there is a whole series of

7 interviews of ex-Who's Who Worldwid e employees, including

8 one or two where the employees openly acknowledge where

9 the script is full of lies and a whole bunch of garbage

10 and anything else.

11 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus is not interested in

12 that.

13 MR. WHITE: I know he is not.

14 THE COURT: You may be, but he is not. He is

15 interested in what will help his side.

16 THE COURT: How unusual.

17 MR. WHITE: I understand. I am requesting --

18 THE COURT: Give him the information of all the

19 people he is trying to hide.

20 MR. WHITE: When I heard the tapes last week I

21 made the request and I am trying to find out that

22 information if the government has it.

23 THE COURT: If you don't have it, you will
24 represent as an Assistant United States Attorney and
25 officer of the Court that you don't have it. That's the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT RE PORTER

5617
Watstein-recross/Neville


1 end of it. As soon as you tell me you don't have it,

2 that's the end of it.

3 MR. WHITE: I will find out the answer.

4 MR. TRABULUS: One other thing.

5 At the same time the subject of these tapes first

6 came up, I asked Mr. White whether in addition to the

7 tapes there was any 3500 material relating to Mr. West

8 that was associated with the tapes. And he said it was on

9 his way -- on its way. If there was any. I don't know if

10 he is referring to the same thing he just said he

11 requested or not.

12 MR. WHITE: That is exactly what I am talking about.

13 THE COURT: My remarks today in no way take away

14 from the fact that the government I feel has done an

15 extraordinary job in giving discovery. They have been

16 completely candid in my opinion, and have produced

17 everything possible that th ey can produce.

18 However, if there is new material or something

19 Mr. White doesn't know about, we are going to get it.

20 This is one of those times.

21 Anything else, Mr. Trabulus?

22 MR. TRABULUS: Nothing else, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: 9:30 tomorrow morning.
24 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock a.m.,
25 Wednesday, February 25, 1998.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5618

1 I-N-D-E-X

2
W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S
3
PAGE LINE
4 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N................. 5418 3
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd).................... 5418 13
5 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 5448 5
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd).................... 5457 12
6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5460 18
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5503 11
7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5 535 14
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5555 16
8 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5566 3
RECROSS EXAMINATION.............................. 5586 25
9

10 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S

11
Government's Exhibit 1601 received in evidence... 5457 5
12 Government's Exhibit 1602 received in evidence... 5457 6
Government's Exhibit 1603 received in evidence... 5457 7
13 Government's Exhibit 1604 received in evidence... 5457 8
Government's Exhibit 1605 received in evidence... 5457 9
14 Government's Exhibit 1606 received in evidence... 5457 10

15 Defendant's Exhibit Q-1 received in evidence..... 5477 19
Defendant's Exhibit CA received in evidence...... 5531 18
16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

Unholy Federal Trials  - The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club